Workplace civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture; it allows people and businesses to thrive by fostering respect and empathy among everyone involved. In this episode of All Things Work, join SHRM Chief Data and Insights Officer Alex Alonso, PhD, SHRM-SCP, for a “podcast takeover” and accompanying discussion of SHRM’s latest research on the topic of workplace civility. Also, hear from Kate Zabriskie, president of Business Training Works, a company focused on providing soft skills instruction, on how her work helps support civility in the workplace.
Workplace civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture; it allows people and businesses to thrive by fostering respect and empathy among everyone involved. In this episode of All Things Work, join SHRM Chief Data and Insights Officer Alex Alonso, PhD, SHRM-SCP, for a “podcast takeover” and accompanying discussion of SHRM’s latest research on the topic of workplace civility. Also, hear from Kate Zabriskie, president of Business Training Works, a company focused on providing soft skills instruction, on how her work helps support civility in the workplace.
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Speaker 1:
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Alex Alonso:
Welcome to All Things Work, a podcast from SHRM. All Things Work is an audio adventure where we talk with thought leaders and taste makers to bring you an insider's perspective on All Things Work. I'm Dr. Alex Alonso, SHRM's chief data and insights officer, leading intelligence, insights and innovation functions. And thank you for joining me today for what I call a podcast takeover, where I'll be sharing and discussing the latest findings from SHRM research on the topic of workplace civility. If you don't know, workplace civility is a cornerstone of workplace culture and it allows people and businesses to thrive by fostering respect and empathy among everyone involved.
The SHRM Civility Index is ... So it's a funny story, the Civility Index, because this goes way back actually almost three or four years. In fact, this is an area where I fell into the concept of civility because I never in my life thought that I would be producing data that involved civility or assessing civility in the workplace, in society, or anything like that. And actually dates all the way back to the origin story behind a book that I wrote a while back called Talking Taboo. And the idea was that I wanted to study what polarizing conversations looked like in the workplace and why it is that there are topics that happen no matter what, that people talk about no matter what. And one of the things that stood out is there are discussions that happen about these kind of polarizing topics over and over and over again. And they happen in numerous ways.
For instance, we know that 92% of working Americans say that they've engaged in what they consider to be an uncivil interaction in the workplace. In fact, they talk a little bit about how they've talked about it. They treat it as though it's a taboo topic, but they continue to enjoy it. They continue to do it. In addition, what happened though was we started to collect stories around behavior, people's behavior, in the workplace. And it was fascinating to see how people coalesced around key topics. And every one of the key topics eventually challenged the workplace culture and challenged the civility within that culture. I'll give you an example. In 2022, when we published Talking Taboo, one of the things that stood out was that people really became uncivil in the workplace, but they became uncivil around four key topics or five key topics. Number one was around COVID and what people were doing around COVID.
Number two was really around this notion of presidential elections. Then there were state-level elections. Then there were things that were more workplace-oriented, like what is going on in the world of social justice in the workplace? And then lastly, people even got uncivil about some funny things like Johnny Depp and Amber Heard's divorce as an example. And so all of a sudden though, we noticed that whenever people engaged in these kind of conversations, about polarizing topics, incivility rose in their workplace. They all reported some sort of incivility. With that in mind, and then looking at 2023 and how we've begun the ramp up to the 2024 election, we at SHRM, decided that it was important for us to really take on a challenge to really focus on creating more civil conversations in the workplace. And we do that through two things. First and foremost, we put out a challenge that really highlighted how we are going to generate one million civil conversations in the workplace.
But then beyond that, we wanted to assess what is the state of civility in society, as well as in the workplace? And to do that, we started by actually taking on what is a monthly and eventually a quarterly indicator of how many uncivil acts are happening in the workplace? What is the number of uncivil acts that are happening in the workplace? And more importantly, what is too far? What is the benchmark that is too far? If you were to look at our first example, we see that there is a number, but that it's an indicator of a pot that's about to start boiling and simmering and getting too hot when it comes to incivility. No surprise given that we're in an election year. But that's really what our civility index is. SHRM is trying to wrap its arms around how we make better workplaces by assessing the level of civility and number of acts of incivility that are happening in the workplace every day.
Interestingly, when we look at the data around the civility index, we track the number of acts of incivility that occur to workers every day. So if you were to look at US workers and what they report, they identify that more than 171 million acts of incivility happens to them per day. Now, that may seem high. But as a general number, but in reality, that's equal to or just about a little over one per each individual in the workplace alone. What's interesting about this is that these types of acts of incivility can take many forms. And so for instance, we can see that some of these things are just about potential impoliteness and dealing with dialogue that is a little bit trickier than most, but failing to be as polite as you might expect. And that's really a good portion of this, maybe one out of every four of these acts.
However, when you get beyond those moments of impoliteness, what you start to see is acts of real incivility, things that deal with being rude to one another. Intentionally being disrespectful, finding ways to engage in disagreement in a way that's uncivil, actually getting to the point where you're being accosted by other co-workers, doing things that really are impugning your integrity in the workplace. Things that deal with trying to lay blame on others or find ways to take shots at other individuals. Some of them are even so horrible that you get into acts of incivility like hazing and finding ways to really make people uncomfortable in the workplace. In fact, I have a story around one of the worst acts of incivility I've ever seen, that dealt specifically with nurses not liking a new nurse who is learning procedures and actually bringing in new novel ways of thinking to an emergency room or an emergency department. And they decided that they were going to go ahead and put a dead fish in her muffler and make her truly uncomfortable, and recognize that she was not appreciated in the workplace.
That to me, is an ultimate act of incivility because it's disrespect. It can go so far as to get to the point where we're also talking about physical harm, which is the absolute worst case scenario. So if I was to provide some level setting for people trying to understand the scores that we might give on the civility index, if you were to look at this from a scale of zero to 100, this data shows that in quarter one of 2024, our society sat at an index score of about 42. Putting that into perspective, it may not seem like a huge percentage. But it's not a percentage. What it's indicative of is what the temperature, the social temperature is, within our climate and within our overall society. What that means is I would compare it specifically to something like a boiling pot. We know that 212 degrees Fahrenheit is what will cause boiling. But there are many stages along the way that actually are indicative of what is a temperature that's too hot to sustain life.
So for instance, if you're at that temperature that's about 130, which is tantamount to this 42, it's too hot to sustain life. And more importantly, it's going to start to kill things off or make things worse. That's an example of how that figure changes. The other thing to keep in mind though is that that 42 translates to these 171 million acts per day. What that's indicative of is in general life, people are experiencing somewhere between to about 2.6 different acts of incivility every day. And what's even more telling though is most of them, or a good percentage of them, are happening in their general lives. But still, a nice percentage is happening in the workplace. When we look at the data, it's clear that about 40% of incivility happens in the workplace, meaning that those acts are taking place in the workplace.
What's intriguing to me though is we see a lot of many US workers that are feeling very strongly about incivility leading to negative workplace outcomes. If you were to look at the data and how it suggests that uncivil behavior takes place more frequently and specific jobs or in industries, we see specifically that there are a couple industries that stand out. Manufacturing is always one where it stands out. We see it in service sector, in particular. We also see it in areas like our healthcare sector. We see quite a bit of it happening in the healthcare sector. In fact, I alluded to this in a prior response. But one of the things that stands out is you see this often with healthcare, where people are feeling a depersonalization and a lot of burnout. And that actually lends itself to uncivil behavior.
What's intriguing about this is those negative workplace outcomes can range a variety of things. So we know from our research that if someone is experiencing incivility, it does three things to them. First, it starts to shorten the window between when they joined and when they plan to leave. In addition, we also see that there is a variety of different experiences like having burnout or desire to not be in the workplace. And then lastly, they start to refer to their manager as toxic or someone that they want to leave the organization for in many cases. Because what ends up happening is they see a manager who's not helping them overcome the incivility or not manage that incivility in the workplace. So one of the things that stands out to me is that we're in 2024, it's an important election year. It's at the highest possible stage in the highest office in the land.
And one of the things that we continue to see is that many people are interested in seeing how politics, political ideology, things like that, play an important role in the way that their lives are changing. It's the one thing that stands out. And in fact, we actually wonder whether or not there's any kind of differences between liberals and conservatives, Democrats or Republicans, in terms of the number of incivility, acts of incivility, that they report over and over again. And one of the things that stands out is we don't really have a lot of data on that. What we do see though is that they actually tend to be on par with one another. Both Democrats and Republicans, or liberals and conservatives, report the same level of incivility for the most part, which is an encouraging finding in many cases. While we don't want incivility to happen in the workplace in particular, we do see that there is a consistent level between the two groups.
Now, certainly there are other indicators of how this might shift, and one of the things we're seeing is maybe there's an indicator that's related to who somebody is likely to vote for. But that data is still being refined as we look at it. When considering differences that exist in the Civility Index and the number of uncivil acts that someone experiences on a daily basis, the other thing that we looked at was generational differences. And I share this in large part because generational differences are the number one question that we get as researchers, social scientists, left and right. You get questions about generational differences. And I know for instance, my friends in HR, we always get asked about, "How many of you have actually ever had a drink on behalf of or because of a millennial?" Because millennials were the ones who always took a hit.
Never mind the fact that I'm the father of a millennial, that many people are parents of millennials. I always took some sort of measure of restraint around that because I don't believe in the generational differences being as set in as many people tend to believe. And there's a lot of great studies out there that indicate that they are shifting. But what is interesting is we do see a little bit of a bump generationally when it comes to Gen Z, in particular, experiencing or reporting acts of incivility. And there's a couple different hypotheses for that. Number one, Gen Z is more likely to engage in certain kind of discussions that may not be the kind that older generations would experience in the workplace. They're having conversations about different things, and they're more open in terms of discussing the kinds of things that we're talking about when it comes to politics and political ideology. It's something that is just a marker of the Gen Z generation. Ironically, similar to what younger millennials experience as well. This is something that we see, but it is not something that is a huge difference statistically.
When I ask myself, what is it that these findings are indicating to us when it comes to the state of civility on the whole, especially civility in the workplace, in the US workplace, one of the things that stands out for me is one, we have a threshold of incivility that is much higher than any of us actually ever anticipated. We're seeing more acts than anyone has ever anticipated would be reported. In addition, we're also seeing couple things that stand out, like the fact that actually, just about 40% of all acts of incivility are happening in the workplace. Now, when you think about this though, we only spend about a third of our day in the workplace. So it makes complete sense that we would have that ratio.
But the question I always raise is, is 40% acceptable? Is that level of incivility really something that we want in our workplaces? The other thing that it points to is people are very much attuned to what civility looks like on a personal level. And so many people are discussing civility on the whole. This means that we want to take into account how people not only report incivility, but more importantly what they consider to be incivility. We want to take into account why it is that they're willing to report them, and more importantly, how it is that employers can help people either see and recognize incivility, or how they can respond to someone who is overstating incivility in some way? So there's a whole host of issues here that are particularly interesting. What's most telling about these findings is really that we have a high level in terms of the number of perceived acts of incivility in the US workplace. And that it is high enough that we should be paying attention to it as culture stewards in our own organizations.
It's no secret that our research has highlighted that one in four workers believe their managers or supervisors are effective or very effective at handling uncivil behavior in the workplace. The question I get all the time from leaders is, what can we do in our workplaces to foster greater civility? I actually espouse couple different things. One is find a framework for having tough conversations. There's a variety of them out there. Some that really deal with this notion of engaging in review of the uncivil discussions that happen in the workplace and reviewing the uncivil activity that happens in the workplace. The other thing I always foster and try to push is for people to practice being uncivil. And I say that in large part because the only way that managers and supervisors will actually be effective is if they see it, they actually experience it, and believe it or not, they understand how it is that other people feel when engaging in this.
I have a colleague, her name is Irshad Manji. She's a CEO of a communication firm. And one of the things she talks about is the only way that you can get people to listen with the aim of learning is to have them experience the outcomes that others experience. And so one of the things that I recommend having your managers do is practice identifying uncivil acts in the workplace, and make sure that they themselves are experiencing what it feels like when somebody is a victim of incivility. And then the last thing I always point people to is measure it. Find a way to build this into your engagement surveys. Find a way to leverage the SHRM Civility Index as a recurring tool for yourself, even if it's just something that you use as an indicator or a diagnostic. But make sure that you find ways to measure incivility in the workplace.
I almost go back to what it was like when I was in the logistics industry, and looking specifically at the number of days that we had without incident. And that might be a different way to tackle this, is to think about a number of days that we go without a serious act of incivility. Those are the things that I remind people. They're basics, but they're easy ways to build the skills amongst managers and supervisors. I actually fancy myself as not SHRM's chief data and insights officer, but rather SHRM's chief futurist. And what that is is a fancy title for saying I can look back at the data and poke holes in it and think about what it means 20 years out. All of us have had an encounter with a futurist at this point. But based upon this data, there are three questions that stand out to me.
What is the trend that we will see when we measure this continuously and how it is that temperature will either go up or go down? That civility index, the SHRM Civility Index, will go up or go down? The other thing that I want to look at is how it changes regionally and even by zip code. We have data that supports how we go about looking at it at that level. So from region to state to county to zip code. And then beyond that, what I want to see is how it is that specific events really drive up or impact incivility in the workplace, especially the ratio of uncivil acts in the workplace, relative to uncivil acts in society in general. I have a sneaking suspicion that we're going to see this ramp up over the course of the year a little bit because we are getting more heated and more into the last six months of this election. But this is an indicator that there's a lot of good information out there that we need to examine.
So to offer further context on the scale of zero to 100 and what the data shows us, at least from quarter one of 2024, people always ask me, "What does 100 look like? What does zero look like?" Zero is an indication that we're living in a zen society, which I think that's a number we will never hit in reality. That's not an area where I think we will live, in large part because none of us have full enlightenment and have zero conflicts in our lives. 100 though, people ask me this often as far as what this really looks like, and I can give two answers. One is that we are in an existential disaster, meaning that we don't know who we are, we don't understand our identities. And not only are we fighting with others and being uncivil to others, but we're even being uncivil to ourselves.
But to put this in different context, I'd argue that what this really looks like is a civil war happening in the workplace, or a civil war happening in society. And I don't think we're ever going to get to that point. That's a boiling point that's way too hot. But that's what that number looks like. So given that that is how far what the ultimate extreme is, I'd argue the fact that we're even close to the middle is an indicator that we are having the kinds of dialogues, the kinds of uncivil activity, that is way too close to that ultimate disaster.
There's one question I get often, which is from CEOs in particular. And CEOs always ask me about whether they're referring to engagement, whether they're referring to empathy, whether they're talking about things like culture. They always come up with this notion of, is empathy really a real thing? Do we ever get fatigue from some of those things? Some of it is fatigue because they don't talk HR speak. In many cases, they look at the world through a different language in many cases than others. But in reality, that what they're asking is a different question. They're asking, why do these things matter for engaging and making our organizations more effective? The thing that stands out to me is when you look at CEOs, consistently for the last four or five years, what they ask for more than anything else is to have a culture that is sustainable and to make sure that managers are the ones who are skilled to do that.
In fact, 68% of CEOs argue that repeatedly. One of the things that you see though, is in arguing for that, they're looking for the base conditions that make that culture. Empathy is great, but you can't be empathetic if you don't take into account the civility, which is the underlying condition for that. In fact, my team here at SHRM, led by Derrick Scheetz, who's the lead researcher behind this, actually speaks to the notion that civility is the core condition for culture. If you don't have that table stakes condition, you will never achieve a true culture. And so I'm a big believer in that, and I hear it from a variety of different audiences talking about that.So I always want to remind us that there's two key factors at play. One is building a culture does mean you have to set some table stakes. And two, doing it well and sustaining it means you got to have good managers.
Now, that you've heard about the research on workplace civility, let's turn to a guest to discuss practical applications and stories from real life on the topic of workplace civility. Kate Zabriskie is the owner of Business Training Works, a soft skills and etiquette course provider based in Port Tobacco Maryland. She's literally in the business of teaching employees how to be more civil at work.
Kate Zabriskie:
Hi, I am Kate Zabriskie and I'm the president of Business Training Works, and we are a boutique training company focused on all things soft skills. So what that really means is we are working with clients to help them improve customer service, to help them improve employee engagement, to help them improve such things as civility in the workplace. In recent months, our phone has been ringing. And I will tell you that it also started to ring in March of 2020 when everybody went home. And what I have concluded, and it's just a hypothesis, but anytime there's a significant change, somebody does something in the workplace that makes somebody else who's in charge go, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe that that just happened. We need to get somebody in here yesterday." And sometimes, it's something that's really, frankly, a management function. I'm like, "Did you really not know that you weren't supposed to eat somebody else's lunch that was in the refrigerator? Is that truly a training issue? You just didn't know that?"
No, maybe not. It's probably a management issue. But you may not know how to have that conversation. So that's where we come into the picture, is we're going to be there to be the support to help deliver the message for that manager. So shifts happen when workplace changes. It was, "Hey, you really do ..." And I'm laughing when I say this, "But you do need to be closed for a Zoom call." And it may not be quite that bad, but it's sitting in your bed ... In your bed on the Zoom call is probably not a good idea. And we've crossed into this lack of professionalism zone. Have you seen a shift? When I first got into this field, what people were really buying, when we would say, "We're going to offer you a course on etiquette or business etiquette", what they were really talking about was, "We need the fork course. We need somebody to come here and talk about what's the best way to get through a business mail, or what's the best way to navigate a cocktail party?"
And we'll still get that call from time to time. But the need for that kind of training really expanded, and it got more into the, "How do we play nicely with each other in meetings?" And sometimes, it would manifest as we need a course on teamwork or team building. And you do a little digging and you'd find out, "Ooh, okay, we don't listen to each other. We interrupt each other in meetings. We make decisions after the meeting." So the meeting happens, and then the meeting after the meeting happens. And people are completely dismissed and discounted. Or we've got people dropping the F-bomb just casually in the workplace, and where in the world did that come from?
And I just even think about what you see in media and what didn't exist about 20, 24, 25 years ago. There was no social media. That was not a thing. You didn't have people swearing on national television. And so I think some of the modeling that you're seeing is not helping the situation in terms of what's okay to do and what's not okay to do at work. So you're seeing the societal trickle in, trickle down. If you've got leaders doing something, is it any wonder that you're seeing some of these same problems manifesting in the workplace? So you might think as you start to ponder this, that there's certain industries that must be hot beds for a lack of civility. No, turns out, rudeness and bad behavior is an equal opportunity offender. And we'll get this call from organizations of all shapes, all sizes, all industries.
So I don't think that there's a place that you can say, "Ooh, they're going to need us, because that is one of those places that does X, Y and Z." our calls come from pretty much everywhere. And some of them you just go, "Wow, this is amazing." And sometimes, it's a group that in a million years, you never would've thought that this would've been a problem. But you might have a situation where you've got people don't speak to staff in the right way, that they are so rude to the service people. And, "Gosh, the way that we treat our cleaning crew is just unacceptable. And somebody needs to come in here and have that conversation." And so again, that's when we come into the picture to try to get everybody on the same page. And our approach to this is usually one of self-discovery or group discovery.
I find that that works best because the last thing that you want is Kate Zabriskie or a member of her team to come in and tell you how you need to work in your space every day. That's not our job. What our job is to start driving that conversation, asking the right questions, getting people to have a shared understanding, and an agreement on, "This is what we think is okay here in our space. This is what we think is maybe not so okay."
And the reason for that is obvious if you think about it, which is people don't argue with their own data. If we can get them to figure it out on their own and embrace it, then we've done our job and we've done it well. And hopefully, we have people then who enjoy coming to work more. They're more engaged. It's this whole thread. If I'm going to work with a bunch of people who I feel are disrespectful, they're rude, et cetera, from the minute I walk in the door at 8:30 to the time I leave at 5:30 or whenever that is, that is a miserable way to be. And I'm floating a resume and trying to get out of there. So our hope is to make ... It sounds a little ponies and rainbows. But the world, a kinder, nicer, more supportive place to be, so we're getting full engagement out of as many people as we can.
So as you've been listening to this, you might be thinking, "So what do I do with all of this information? How do I drive a workplace that does value civility?" And does value ... Use an old term, but good manners? How do I do that? So guess what? It's not that complicated. That's the good news. If you're in a leadership role, don't expect people to just figure it out on their own. I think that one of the things that we see ... And we see it in all areas of our work, not just this topic, is that human beings have this amazing capacity to assume that there is a shared understanding when there really isn't. So we assume that we're on the same page. I would challenge people to assume exactly the opposite, that we don't have a shared understanding. It's like, "So I assume that we're not on the same page. If I do that, then I'm opening the door to a conversation. Or I'm reminding myself that I need to let people know that it's a good idea to spray down the desk. That's something that we have here."
Thinking like gym equipment at the gym. Same basic idea. We've got shared space. "Hey, this is what you do when you're done with the desk for the day", and to lay that out. So we want to be sure that we're not leaving expectations up to guessing. If you're not in a leadership role, that's fine too. You can do some question asking, to say, "Hey, you know what? What's the expectation around this? How does it work around here?" And start driving that conversation. Option two or step two, idea two, model what you want to see. Model what you want to see. Because there are a lot of people that will talk a good game about, "We need to do this, we need to do that, we need to be polite to each other", and they're the worst offenders.
And so it goes back to that whole idea of what you do is so much more important than what you say in terms of weight. So we want to model what we want to see. And then if there is a problem and somebody has done something, we need to address it. And there are ways to do that. "I'm sure that this wasn't the intention. I need to let you know this is the impact that it has. And I can't imagine that you did this with any kind of malice, but I wanted to tell you because I know you'd want to address it." And to take the high road, but to pretend that you don't see it and that it's just going to go away, like a rotten apple in a fruit bowl. That rotten apple in the fruit bowl doesn't just stay there being rotten all by itself.
It spreads its rotten ... To the other nice apples that are in the fruit bowl. And now they have the stink of rotten on them. And all of a sudden, we've moved to a fairly toxic culture. And then all that will happen then is that my phone will start to ring. So often the question that people will ask is, what's the worst thing that you've ever seen, or What's the craziest thing that you've ever been called in for? So I'm going to share a couple that are just burned into my brain and will be there forever. So one was somebody had gone out during lunchtime and purchased a bunch of food for a barbecue the next day, including some hamburgers. And because it was summertime, they had put all of these things in the fridge that was in the kitchen. The person went at the end of the day to collect said items. And they were gone, just gone.
And so that incident, we fondly referred to as the incident of the hamburglar. So hamburgers are real. But it was just a remarkable thing, that who would do such a thing? So that one stands out as a for sure. So how do you survive over the next couple of months? Because I do think that the prediction is that as we're going into election season, temperatures are hot because they just are. It's listening. Listening is the most underrated skill. And so when you see something you don't like or you see something that's offensive to you, to just take the pause to stop and try to understand what's going on, where's this other person coming from? Is there an opportunity here for me to educate? Because going out at nine million miles an hour is probably not going to get you the best result. So I just want to put in a big plug, for really working on seeking to understand what's going on with other people. Because that's half of it in terms of living in a more civil workplace.
Alex Alonso:
Well, that's going to do it for today's episode of All Things Work. A big thank you to the SHRM communications team, the brand team, as well as the research team for putting together the insights related to workplace civility, and all the research from the new SHRM Civility Index. I hope that you'll leverage this and find new ways to take this data and make it your own. Before we get out of here though, I want to encourage everyone to follow All Things Work wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, listener reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to leave a review and help others find the show. Finally, you can find all of our episodes on our website at SHRM.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time on All Things Work.
Speaker 1:
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