SHRM President and CEO, Johnny C. Taylor, Jr., SHRM-SCP, joins All Things Work host Tony Lee to discuss questions explored in SHRM’s new book, Reset: A Leader’s Guide to Work in an Age of Upheaval. As the book’s author, Johnny discusses the role of employer brand and organizational culture when attracting top talent; their intersection with diversity, equity and inclusion; and the steps CEOs and HR leaders can take to reset their organizations.
SHRM President and CEO, Johnny C. Taylor, Jr., SHRM-SCP, joins All Things Work host Tony Lee to discuss questions explored in SHRM’s new book, Reset: A Leader’s Guide to Work in an Age of Upheaval. As the book’s author, Johnny discusses the role of employer brand and organizational culture when attracting top talent; their intersection with diversity, equity and inclusion; and the steps CEOs and HR leaders can take to reset their organizations.
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Speaker 1:
All Things Work is brought to you by Namely. Namely is an all-in-one HR solution. Everyone on your team will love and use. Designed for small and mid-sized companies, Namely provides a centralized platform to create a seamless employee experience. Learn more at namely.com, today. One more time. That's namely.com.
Tony Lee:
Welcome to All Things Work. A podcast from the Society for Human Resource Management. I'm your host, Tony Lee head of content here at SHRM. Thank you for joining us. All Things Work is an audio adventure, where we talk with thought leaders and tastemakers to bring you an insider's perspective on All Things Work. Today, I'm very excited to welcome Johnny C. Taylor Jr., the president, and chief executive officer of SHRM and author of the new SHRM book; Reset: A Leader's Guide to Work in an Age of Upheaval. Johnny's career spans over 20 years as a lawyer, HR executive, and CEO in both the nonprofit and for-profit space. He's held senior and chief executive roles at IAC/Interactive, Viacom's Paramount Pictures, Blockbuster Entertainment Group, the McGuireWoods Law Firm, and Compass Group USA. Before joining SHRM four years ago, Johnny was president and chief executive officer of the Thurgood Marshall College Fund. Johnny truly is a thought leader regarding work, workers, and the workplace. He is the perfect guest for the All Things Work podcast. Johnny, welcome.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Well. Thank you. What an amazing introduction, Tony. I appreciate you. I hope I can live up to it.
Tony Lee:
Well, so you have a great new book. I've read the new book. I've really enjoyed it. Can you share with us what inspired you to write Reset?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Well, so pre-pandemic, I was traveling 60, 70% of the time, and candidly after Friday, March 13th, the day I remember forever when we decided to close the country down and indeed most of the world, I had some free time on my hand. You're sitting at home and you have time to really pause. You hear people talk about the "COVID clarity." Well, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking what's all of this going to mean for the world of work? How will things change or will they simply go back? In fact, at that point, I predicted a pause and the idea was, we all thought at the time, shut the country down 14, 21, 30 days, and then we'll get back to things. It'll be a pause and we'll go back to normal. Well, as time passed and here we were three months, six months, nine months, it became very clear to me and everyone around us that this was more of a reset moment, not a pause. That's really what prompted me to start just curiously thinking, how differently will the world of work? What will it feel like post-pandemic after the true reset?
Tony Lee:
Yeah. Well, what a better time to no better time really to ask that question. Now in the book, you talk about culture a lot.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Yes.
Tony Lee:
You write specifically, "A CEO has to live the culture they establish and communicate that identity every day." Can you explain that concept?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Yeah. For the last couple of years ... So it wasn't just the pre-pandemic, but just before the pandemic, you saw CEOs start using the word "culture" a lot more than they had in times past. Because in times past it was, to be honest, perceived as a soft word. Like, what do you mean? Do you have free snacks and ping pong tables, et cetera? All of that was how we defined sort of culture. Do you have a good culture? Then, over the last year and a half, in particular, the word culture took on a whole different meaning. Employees started really focusing leaders and CEOs in particular on the question, like, "What is this place? I know we're here to make money and shareholders make money and we as employees make money, but how do we do it?"
That's the real question. Your business is product, services is what occurs. The real question is how that occurs. That became the definition of culture. How things really get done around here. Now, the key is ... and frankly there are two keys from my perspective. One: I don't believe that there are good or bad cultures when you, of course, carve out unethical, immoral, illegal cultures, taking those off the table. Ultimately a CEO has to become very clear about how things will be done around here; the rules, some written, some unwritten, how things happen. Then you've got to live it or otherwise, the employees are confused when you say, "This is our culture," but the behaviors that the employees observe aren't consistent with said culture. It really was this moment where coming out of the pandemic, which I hope we're coming out of it. Every time I think it's almost done something else flares back up. But we as CEOs understood, we have to do more than just communicate it. We've got to live it.
Tony Lee:
Culture means a lot of things to a lot of people. There are employees out there who are saying, "Well, to me, the culture is flexibility. My ability to sometimes work at the office sometimes work at home." Should CEOs and HR leaders rethink how they define the work week, given the rise of remote work and flexible scheduling?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Without a question, we're redefining everything. Not just the work week, we are redefining what work is. We're redefining, what is a worker? If you think about the way we have in the past classified workers, there were employees and then there was those contractors or 1099 people. Even now organizations are defining themselves differently. I've heard an organization the other day referred to their "combined workforce." I'll tell you that CEO commented to me that 40% of my combined workforce, aren't my employees. We literally are redefining everything. Simple questions, Tony. I think you know this. Even at SHRM, there was a time when you said contractors, for example; customer care, our customer service function. They weren't considered employees and therefore not allowed to attend our all-staff calls. Well, now we've had to redefine and rethink that to say, "These people are the front line." The person who answers the phone and talks with one of our colleagues at SHRM doesn't know or care, if that person is a 1099 person, or if they're a W2 employee. They don't care. They see that person as SHRM. These artificial rules that we've set up about how we treat people differently; our workers, is now all on the table. We have to redefine every aspect of work, including as you point out, what is the workplace of the future?
Tony Lee:
You touched throughout the book and you talked about recently at SHRMs talent conference about the war for talent or just the incredible shortages of finding good people. In a really tight job market ... It's getting tighter by the day. How can employers stand out when they're trying to recruit the best and brightest candidates?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Two things; one: employers have to be crystal clear, intentional, deliberate about articulating their culture and living said, "culture." You can't be everything to everyone, but indeed when you're courting someone to come work with you've got to be clear about what it is they're going to experience when they actually accept and show up. The worst thing in the world is for there to be a disconnect between what you told them during the courtship and how you actually show up when they become employees. Clarity around the culture and then a commitment to living that culture in real behavioral ways. People have to see it, not just talk about it, is the most important thing that we're going to have to do if we're going to get talent and keep the talent. Now, the second thing that's really important is flexibility. That is a hallmark, I think, of every organization. The days of, "These are the rules, and you're going to stick to these rules or you're not going to work here."
Yes. There will always be some workplace rules that you just must have. Right now, we're debating do you mandate vaccines? Well, that's a rule, so I don't want anyone hearing this to think, "Okay. You just said, there'll be no rules going forward and you need full flexibility." You need reasonable flexibility. We need to be more flexible than we have been in times fast. But absolutely there are times ... There are workplace rules that we need to keep these things, these organizations, and these melus working efficiently and fairly and equitably. So two things; culture, a maniacal focus on culture, and two; flexibility will be the hallmarks of getting and retaining the best talent. But that is one of our challenges is we've got to get it right.
Tony Lee:
All right. Employer brand is wrapped into that, especially in the recruiting side of it. In the book, you actually define employee brand as the identity you wear as a company. What does that mean both to HR professionals and the talent acquisition professionals who work within HR?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Yeah. It means that employers can't say they are one thing and be something else. You can't say this is the experience and not actually deliver on that. We say X. Do we really mean X? I'll give you an example. I know of an organization that sat around and said, "One of our values is we want people to bring their authentic selves to work." I challenged the CEO and all of the people around the team. I said, "Do you really mean that? That is a great little line for you to put in your material and to say at your all-staff events, but do you really, really want every individual here to bring their authentic selves to work?" Then, once you pushed it, they said, "Well, not exactly." I said, "Well, let's be clear about what we really want." In other words, we've got to pressure test our cultural commitments, because employees are going to hold you accountable for them. This has thrown us into a whole bunch of issues related to ... You're a company that says, I believe in X and that's part of your employee brand. Then employees say, "Yeah. But this particular act that you engaged in, or policy, or policy-maker whom you supported doesn't exactly reconcile with that." This employer brand is becoming increasingly a tough thing for us because if you say it, employees and potential employees hold you accountable.
Tony Lee:
Now there are a number of employers that say our brand is something that always includes diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. What does inclusion mean to you? Why is it important to make sure that's part of your brand?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Diversity exists and we're in a country that is becoming more and more diverse by the day. The diversity is coming. K through 12 public schools in America are majority minorities. Your workforce of the future will be diverse. The question and the challenge is will those diverse people feel like they belong? Will they feel included in the workforce? That poses a really complicated challenge for HR professionals and people managers because it is much easier to manage people who have common experiences, common backgrounds, common world views than it is to bring 10 people in a room with all 10 of them having different perceptions of what is good and what is bad when it comes to any number of issues. Right. Equity is trying to find a way. Inclusion is about bringing people in who are different and embracing their differences, getting the most out of it, such that you benefit from the diversity as opposed to diversity, presenting a net-net negative.
Tony Lee:
Now, not everyone's going to be on board.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Right.
Tony Lee:
As you well know, there are sometimes dissenters among staff or people who are poor cultural fits. What does a leader do about those employees while still being respectful and empathetic?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
When I think about diversity, diversity is not an initiative. It is a part of our culture. What that means is when an employee says, "I don't agree with you." Then you say, "Guess what. We say, we're a diverse organization, which means you have a right not to agree with me. You have a perspective that is different, diverse from mine. Our goal is just to make you feel included, not to become aligned so that we are all the same. Remember our cultural commitment is to diversity and to inclusion, not to diversity." We all have to agree because by definition you don't have diversity. I constantly pivot back to what are our cultural truths? What are our guiding principles? If diversity is one of them, then by definition, every employee will have something over time that occurs within the workplace that they don't agree with and you don't have to agree with it. That is the beauty of diversity.
Tony Lee:
That's great. Let's take a step back again and look at Reset and all that you communicated through the new book. As CEO, who wants to take the first step toward resetting their organization and as you know, many SHRM members and their CEOs are smaller to mid-size companies. What would you advise that type of CEO as the first thing they should do if they want to reset their organization?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
I literally advise a retreat. I'm talking a hardworking, very focused, no phones, no computers, full focus of your executive team. Bring them in and say, "Who do we aspire to be? Who are we going to be? What are the behaviors? What is our culture?" Let's articulate it. But honestly, "How are things going to operate around here?" Let's, with a lot of discipline, lay it out in detail, and let's work on a strategic communication plan, et cetera, afterwards. But right now let's get clarity with everyone around this table about what is it going to mean to work here? What's our culture? What behaviors won't be accepted, et cetera, and challenge every one of those notions. The problem that I'm seeing is a lot of CEOs say they want a reset moment, but they're not prepared to put the time that it takes to have a reset moment. They go out with things that are half-thought, half-baked, half-committed to, and then they fail because the employees very quickly call it out. Number one is sit down with your team away from the hustle and bustle of the day's activities and say, "Hey guys. Let's be honest. Let's be very thoughtful about what we're going to be."
Tony Lee:
Stated extremely well. We've got time for one last question, Johnny. As you spent your time putting this book together ... You're a CEO of a major organization. You're a single dad. Time is tight. It's a precious thing. What was the most surprising thing you uncovered while working on it? Was it your working style? Was it something you uncovered that you wanted to include in the book? What's the biggest takeaway that you had while working on this project?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:
Believe it or not, although I've spent most of my career being a huge advocate for HR and people issues and worker issues, it was the realization, the true realization that business is all about the people. There is literally no way to have a business conversation without a people conversation. I mean, we say that, and I as the CEO and have worked with CEOs in the past who've all said, "People are our most important asset." But something about this moment, this reset moment, the fact that we are in a knowledge-based economy. We're just in a different point in our evolution as a society. As a business society where I truly, when writing the book said, "Oh my gosh. It is true. Everything comes down to the people." You see organizations don't have marketing problems, they have marketing leadership or people problems. Organizations don't have finance problems. A business doesn't just lose money.
They may have a poor CFO or poor accountants, but everything comes down to human beings and people which meant this book was so important to literally rethink everything that we thought before. Because this was a true reset moment. I think that was the biggest "aha" for me. I know many might be saying, "Well, of course, you'd say that you're the head of SHRM." No. In a very surreal kind of way, I was writing and said, "This book could be three times the number of pages it is because everything in business ultimately rests on people."
Tony Lee:
Well, what a perfect way to end this conversation, Johnny. Thank you. That's going to do it for today's episode of All Things Work. A big thank you to Johnny C. Taylor Jr. for joining me to discuss SHRMs new book Reset, which is now available in the SHRM store, on Amazon, in bookstores, and wherever you purchase books. I want to add that all author proceeds from the book sale will benefit the SHRM Foundation, which is committed to empowering HR as a social force for change. To learn more, please visit reset.shrm.org. Now, before we get out of here, I want to encourage everyone to follow All Things Work wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, listener reviews have a real impact on a podcast's visibility. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to leave feedback and help others find the show. Finally, you can learn more about the All Things Work podcast and find all of our episodes on our website at shrm.org/atwpodcast. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on All Things Work.
Speaker 1:
All Things Work is brought to you by Namely. Namely is an all-in-one HR solution everyone on your team will love and use. Designed for small and mid-sized companies, Namely provides a centralized platform to create a seamless employee experience. Learn more at namely.com, today. One more time. That's namely.com.