In this episode of All Things Work, Kavitha Prabhakar, Deloitte’s chief diversity, equity and inclusion officer, joins host Tony Lee to discuss how these frequent biases adversely impact AAPI employees’ career paths and work experiences, and how employers can help their AAPI employees grow and advance in the workplace.
Asian-American and Pacific Islanders (AAPI) are no strangers to adversity in the workplace, but their experience often doesn’t receive much attention because of longstanding positive stereotypes of AAPI as hard workers and good employees. In this episode of All Things Work, Kavitha Prabhakar, Deloitte’s chief diversity, equity and inclusion officer, joins host Tony Lee to discuss how these frequent biases adversely impact AAPI employees’ career paths and work experiences, and how employers can help their AAPI employees grow and advance in the workplace.
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This episode of All Things Work is sponsored by UKG.
Speaker 1:
This episode of All Things Work is sponsored by UKG. UKG offers HR and workforce management solutions that support your employees and transform your workplace into a work of art.
Speaker 2:
Welcome to All Things Work, a podcast from the Society for Human Resource Management. I'm your host, Tony Lee head of content here at SHRM.. And thank you for joining us. All Things Work as an audio adventure, where we talk with thought leaders and taste makers to bring you an insider's perspective on All Things Work. In today's episode, we'll be discussing the experiences of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders at work like many other minority groups, Asian Americans, and Pacific Islanders are no strangers to dealing with adversity in the workplace. However, they often don't receive the same level of attention as other minority groups because of long standing stereotypes that characterize them as hard workers and good employees. As a result, these types of positive associations can lead to incorrect assumptions that Asian Americans are doing just fine and don't need any special attention from their managers.
Additionally, Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders often come from cultural upbringings that discourage calling attention to their accomplishments and abilities, which can put them at a disadvantage in an American work environment where hiring and career advancement often hinge on acts of self-promotion. Finally, Asian Americans in Pacific Islanders are a group who have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic. anti-Asian American hate crimes, more than doubled over the past 15 months and more Asian owned, small businesses saw losses in revenue than businesses owned by whites, blacks, or Hispanics. All of this highlights the importance of taking action to support these employees at work.
Joining me to discuss this issue is Kavitha Prabhakar. Kavitha, also known as KP is the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer for the professional services firm, Deloitte, as well as a principal with the organization. She also serves as co-chair of Deloitte's Black Action Council. In these roles, KP champions, Deloitte's D, E and I strategy across all of its businesses, activities and societal investments. Most recently, KP spearheaded the release of Deloitte's inaugural diversity, equity, and inclusion transparency report, which outlines the many dimensions of Deloitte's D, E and I initiatives and identifies the organization's ongoing D, E and I goals and next action steps. KP, welcome to All Things Work.
Speaker 3:
Thank you so much, Tony, for having me here today. It's an honor and a privilege to be on your show and to be sharing perspective.
Speaker 2:
Well, we really appreciate that. Thank you. Well, why don't we start with kind of the basics. How would you rate corporate America's understanding of the Asian American experience?
Speaker 3:
So Tony, I would say that it's very much a journey as you very, very eloquently pointed out in your opening. There is a set of beliefs. There's a set of behaviors and there is a set of facts and unpacking. That is an extremely important step when we look at how Asian Americans are experiencing corporate America. I think the first thing that I would say that all of us need to do, and we did with the DEI transparency report you referenced is just simply understand the makeup of your workforce, understand where Asian Americans are in the workforce, in your workforce, in your corporation, and how are they doing on multiple dimensions, like talent acquisition, advancement, retention. What is their experience and sentiment about being part of the organization? All are things that I would highly encourage every corporation to better understand for their workforce.
At Deloitte, for instance, Tony, we have in our transparency report, we shared this. It is so important to disaggregate data and really understand this population. So we have 28.5% of our workforce is Asian, which is a pretty impressive number. But when you start to then unpack it and say, "What is happening in terms of progression and advancement," you start to see that there is a decline. So we have 13.1% at senior leadership roles, and our board has about 5% Asian Americans. So one has to look at not just the workforce makeup, but what is happening in terms of both experience and advancement of this cohort?
Speaker 2:
No, that makes perfect sense, KP, thank you. I guess what I'm asking is, after the murder of George Floyd, there was an awful lot of attention on certainly black employees, but also Hispanic employees, but you really didn't hear a lot about Asian American employees. Do you think there's a reason for that?
Speaker 3:
Yes. So I think there are a couple of things going on, right? I will tell you, one of the things is Asians, as a minority, were seen as the majority minority or the model minority in many organizations. So often that conversation moved to black and Hispanic LatinX cohorts because the representation was smaller for those cohorts, is smaller for those cohorts, but the model minority myth is one that we're all working on busting, right? And it's extremely important to recognize that Asians still remain a minority, even though they are the fastest growing minority in the country with a significant purchasing power. End of the day, there's still a lot of work to be done with this cohort. So one of the things that we use the opportunity to discuss in such forums is what is the model minority myth? The model minority myth is things like Asians are hard workers. They're academically and economically successful.
They play by the rules. They respect authority. They're quiet. They truly enjoy strong, stable nuclear families, right? They're not willing to shake the status quo. But it is super important to recognize that doing so and propagating such myths causes certain behaviors in corporations and by leaders, right. We often say, "Oh, Asians tend not to want to be in management roles. They are better suited for technical roles. So let's go ahead and give them those kind of roles," versus thinking about how they progress through the organization. I have often heard, and I actually can see this point, Asians are successful, but not necessarily powerful or influential. And that's the shift that we want to continue corporate America to focus on, Tony.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. And the article in All Things Work that this is a companion to talks about that old myth, not necessarily the myth, but the problem of the bamboo ceiling for lack of a better term.
Speaker 3:
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:
And it sounds like that's what you're speaking to. Is there something that companies should be doing to help rid themselves of the bamboo ceiling, just like they're attempting to do for the glass ceiling for women?
Speaker 3:
Absolutely. And I think, first of all, as I started this conversation, understand the representation of your workforce, understand patterns of how cohorts are moving. Right? So in this case, Asians are moving, coming into the organization, moving up and moving out. And what is their experience when they're doing so? So my suggestions are very much, first of all, really, really think about sponsorship in both advancement, right, but also in growth and capability building for your Asian colleagues. Really think about where is it that structural biases may exist and where you need to bring more equity into the discussion. Right.
Like I said, work equity is one thing that I like to talk about is when you are staffing a team or creating a team, you have biases that are structural that might get you to the point of saying, "Well, I have three data analysis roles. I have one technical role that requires software development. I have one communications role, and I have biases that say, I am going to really, from a work equity perspective, pick Asians for certain things, and therefore propagate their lack of capability building in things beyond what they are known for." And it's super important as leaders that we are constantly thinking about what might be the implicit biases that is causing this behavior and to disrupt them, to really disrupt them. And a close examination will allow you to continuously see what might be happening of your systems and processes to do so.
But sponsorship is and mentorship is a huge portion of this. And let me be clear. It's not just on the corporations, Tony. It is also on us. I'm an Asian American myself. It's also on us to work on shifting that, right, pushing forward in terms of recognizing you have a voice and that you should expect to have a voice at leadership tables, making your point of view known, really engaging in good trouble, right? I'm a big believer of creating good trouble. And also the last thing I'll say is Asians have a fear of failure. So how do we fail forward and recognize that taking risks and taking chances will help people see us differently. And to me, there's both sides of this, right? It's not just on corporations. It's also on us as Asian leaders to start making that shift.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I'm a big fan of good trouble too. And I'm guessing that good trouble doesn't get you into bad trouble is the fear.
Speaker 3:
Exactly.
Speaker 2:
Well, let me ask you this. What I found fascinating in your transparency report was that your approach was to break down the US Asian population into three groups.
Speaker 3:
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:
Yes. So, as I said in earlier, 28.5% of our population at Deloitte is Asian, and that's the US workforce. And one of the things is when you are a large minority, it is easy for you to create a homogenous approach to that cohort. And what we recognized is we had to disaggregate the category of Asian, the race category of Asian, to better understand what is happening with each of the sub cohorts. So East Asian, Southeast Asian, right, and South Asian. So we started collecting this data as part of our self ID campaign, which is about employees identifying with it, telling us what they identify as, and what we have started to be able to do with this is to say, "What are the patterns within Asian?" Because it's a pretty large cohort, right?
And if you think about history and lineage, it is a pretty complex cohort in terms of their individual journeys in America. So we have started that journey. The things we believe is happening in our East Asian cohort is different than our South Asian cohort and equity, if you look at my title in this role, is diversity, equity, and inclusion. Equity is a new topic, right? And it's about creating systems, processes, and policies that meet the individual where they are. And one of the things in doing so is better understanding your workforce, disaggregating the data, in this case Asian, to better meet the workforce. So that's our focus overall, Tony.
Speaker 2:
So out of that, do recommendations come back in terms of how, for example, Indian Americans are motivated or are trained versus Southeast Asian Americans. I mean, where does that lead?
Speaker 3:
So it's better understanding. I'll use an example for you. So if I look at our East Asian cohort, when everything around COVID started specifically, we did notice that the spike in Asian hate was definitely peaking. And I think all of you have definitely talked about this and there's been lots of work being done for stop Asian hate, as you know. And one of the things that I would tell you is understanding who our East Asians are, recognizing that they have a role for safety or need for safety and personal safety at a higher rate probably than the other Asians... This was the start of COVID 19. Let me be clear about the timing. We recognized that, and we were able to do things to support our East Asian colleagues. So having that information, having that data, having it at a disaggregated level helps you target your solutions, your support to those individuals.
So that's the power in it overall, Tony. And the point I'll make is, over the course of the year, this anti-Asian hate movement really came through for everybody, right? We started to see that once COVID-19 picked up again at peak levels in India, we saw that Indians were recipients of the hate. So we started to expand well beyond the East Asian community. We've also done over a thousand people in our organization, participated in what we call brave space sessions or listening sessions, where we just had to step back and listen and process what our Asian colleagues were going through and creating that space for empathy, for listening, for understanding is very powerful. A lot of the times our colleagues tell us, "We simply want our leaders to check in on us, plain and simple. It's actually not about 20 solutions, but check in on us, ask us how we're doing. The world outside is not closed off when we come to work every day, it's very much affecting how we show up every day. So check in on us." So our brave space sessions were very powerful in that regard.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. So a key area, especially for HR, is trying to get that message across to the entire employee population. There's so much that HR can do of course, but they tend to be reliant on people managers, on the frontline managers, to kind of carry it out. What are your thoughts there in terms of a lot of managers frankly participated in some fairly heated political rhetoric last year. How do you get managers to understand the importance and the value of treating Asian American employees with the level of respect that they need to?
Speaker 3:
I think the big, big thing for us has been and should be for everybody is reminding people of the core set of values we stand for as an organization. And when you are an employee of an organization, we expect you to live those core values. And one of the things we did was help people understand the expectations of being an inclusive leader. And how does that show up in the workplace? Tony, that's been a big part of what we have focused on. And the journey of education of learning and unlearning is not to be underestimated, right. And helping the manager level, especially the middle management level, really get that and empowering them with tools, with leadership messaging, with tone from the top on our core values, on what it means to be an inclusive leader, what it means to show up with respect, with integrity and understanding and value for all races, all ethnicities, all genders, right, has been a big part of how we approach inclusive leadership at Deloitte and something that I would ask every corporation to do.
Speaker 2:
Yes, exactly. And it's great advice. And I think, every D, E, and I effort that's going on across the country now is making real strides in making sure every employee feels included because as you say, it's all about inclusion.
Speaker 3:
That's right.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. Well, we have reached the end of our discussion. That's going to do it for today's episode of All Things Work. An enormous thank you to Kavitha Prabhakar, KP, for joining me to discuss how we can support Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the workplace. Before we get out of here, I want to encourage everyone to follow and subscribe to All Things Work wherever you listen to podcasts. And also listener reviews have a real impact on a podcast visibility. So if you enjoy today's episode, please take a moment to leave a review and help others find the show. Finally, you can learn more about All Things Work and find all our episodes on our website at shrm.org/atw podcast. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you next time on All Things Work.
Speaker 1:
All Things Work is sponsored by UKG. Your business is important to you, and the best way to improve your business is to improve the lives of your people. UKG develops HR and workforce management solutions designed to take care of your employees because when they feel supported, connected, and appreciated, your business will transform from a workplace into a work of art. UKG. Our purpose is people.