In this episode of All Things Work, host Tony Lee speaks with Jonathan Segal, attorney and partner at Duane Morris’ employment group, on what employers should do to address antisemitism in the workplace.
Employees of Jewish heritage have long encountered antisemitic attitudes, stereotypes and discrimination at work, and half of all Jewish workers report encountering antisemitism at their jobs. In this episode of All Things Work, host Tony Lee speaks with Jonathan Segal, an attorney with Duane Morris, on what employers should do to address workplace antisemitism.
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This episode of All Things Work is sponsored by UKG. UKG offers HR and workforce management solutions that support your employees and transform your workplace into a work of art.
Tony Lee:
Welcome to All Things Work, a podcast from the Society for Human Resource Management. I'm your host, Tony Lee, head of content here at SHRM. Thank you for joining us. All Things Work as an audio adventure, where we talk with thought leaders and taste makers to bring you an insider's perspective on All Things Work.
Today, we're discussing antisemitism in the workplace. For decades, Jewish workers have sometimes been the brunt of inappropriate jokes, endured discrimination, and even experienced violence directed at them. Research shows that antisemitism is widespread at many organizations, despite the prominence of diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. In fact, new data shows that about half of all Jewish workers say they deal with workplace discrimination based on antisemitism.
Joining us today to discuss what employers should do to address workplace antisemitism is Jonathan Segal. Jonathan is an attorney and a partner in the Employment Group at Dwayne Morris in Philadelphia, as well as a managing principle at the Dwayne Morris Institute. Jonathan has been a longtime contributor of articles on discrimination, harassment, and other legal topics to HR Magazine and to SHRM.org, as well as a frequent conference speaker at SHRM events. He's also a dedicated volunteer at the Montgomery County SPCA. Jonathan, welcome to all things work.
Jonathan Segal:
Thank you, Tony. Appreciate your including me.
Tony Lee:
Yes. Thank you so much for being with us. So given this new research, it seems that workplace antisemitism is more prevalent than many people think. Why doesn't it get the same visibility as other forms of discrimination?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, that's one of the problems, that even when I was talking with some people about this podcast, I had colleagues say, "Well, is there really an increase in antisemitism? I don't read about it. I don't hear about it." Genuine interest in it, but a lack of knowledge of it. I think sometimes it doesn't get the same coverage of other kinds of discrimination, harassment. We're also talking about violence at times, because on a relative sense, Jewish individuals are in good shape if you will, in terms of education, economics.
And some people look at that and say, as a collective, Jewish Americans are doing, in a relative sense, well. So there may be a tendency to take less serious where there's discrimination against them, or I would say against us, harassment, retaliation. But one of the biggest problems with antisemitism is really getting people to acknowledge that it exists. And part of that is people speaking up when they experience it. And we're beginning to see more of that recently.
Tony Lee:
So, it's said that hate acts of all kinds tend to increase during times of collective anxiety and uncertainty, like a pandemic, for example. So do you agree that antisemitism in the workplace is worse now than it was say three years ago?
Jonathan Segal:
I think so. And I'm not alone in that. Studies by the American Jewish Committee reinforce general sense among American Jews in particular, that antisemitism has become a more serious problem. And I do think you see upticks in it during periods of economic and other anxiety. We've seen that through history, sometimes just looking for a scapegoat and Jews often have been that scapegoat.
Tony Lee:
Now you're quoted in our All Things Work article on this topic as saying that many Jews downplay their heritage, especially in the workplace rather than vocalize their pride to colleagues. Why do you think that is?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, it's interesting because I don't want to speak for all Jews. I can only tell my impression. I think in a relative sense again, this is a key factor, I believe the bias to Jews experience is not as severe or as pervasive on a day-to-day basis as other groups experience. So for example, I don't think it's as severe or pervasive as racism against Black Americans. But just because it may not be as severe or pervasive doesn't mean it's not a problem.
I think the concern is that if individuals raise it, one view is it will call more attention to it. I heard a lot growing up from relatives, including those who survived the Holocaust, "Keep your head down. Don't draw too much attention. Let it go unless it's a problem." And then there's also a concern, I think by some, that will it be taken seriously when, again, some look at the collective and don't look at the individual and say, "Is this really as serious a problem?" Perhaps not. That doesn't mean it's not a serious problem.
Tony Lee:
And right along that line, like a lot of microaggressions in our society, antisemitism often isn't delivered as an insult by a boss or a colleague, but instead a quip or a joke. But those are just as discriminatory aren't they?
Jonathan Segal:
They can be just as discriminatory and as any other kind of so-called joke, it makes it harder to answer. The obvious ones that we see on Twitter, things like, "Hitler was right," 17,000 retweets in a couple week period. Comments people have made to Jewish individuals kill all the Jews and then attacking them. I mean, those are no-brainers in terms of the antisemitism. But when someone says, "I'm looking for a Jewish lawyer, if you know what I mean." Yeah. I do know what you mean, and it's not meant in a complimentary way.
Tony Lee:
Do you think there are regional differences? I mean, is that part of the issue that maybe folks in certain areas feel like I've never seen this in another area say I've never met someone who's Jewish, right? Isn't it varied across the country.
Jonathan Segal:
Well, I think there are differences, but some of the differences may surprise people. I've been fortunate including work with SHRM to travel, and I've had people say, "I've never met someone Jewish." I don't consider that antisemitic. It's a statement of fact. And it's often followed by a question. I don't assume bad faith just because someone might say that. But there are people who've never met anyone Jewish and then all they may be exposed to are the conspiracy theories on social media, or what they've heard from other individuals. And those messages may resonate consciously or unconsciously with them.
But again, it's not just areas where there's lower Jewish populations. Earlier this spring, the ADL released statistics on hate crimes. And they've been looking at hate crimes since 1979. And in New Jersey and New York, two areas where there are large concentrations of Jewish individuals, had their highest numbers since 1979. So it's not just where people don't know Jews. In fact, where there are Jews, we've had some of the most serious, violent, and extensive cases of antisemitism.
Tony Lee:
Now of course, all of this is fueled by something. So let's pick on one, especially during recent elections. We've heard some broadcasters express the belief that for example, Jewish citizens are more loyal to Israel than they are to the United States, which led to some documented cases of workplace frustrations and arguments and suits. How do you see that playing in, in terms of whether it's social media, or broadcast news, or wherever, perpetuating the issue?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, I think there is no question that criticism of Israel does not make one antisemitic. If one only criticizes Israel and not any other country in the world, then one might question why this singling out? Why the targeting? But I think sometimes focusing on Israel is a proxy for antisemitism, in and of itself. There wasn't Israel during the Holocaust where more than six million Jews, six of nine million European Jews, think about it, 2/3 of a population. There are fewer Jews today than there were before the Holocaust.
There was no Israel, but there was antisemitism. In the 13th century when there was the Bubonic Plague, Jews were blamed for that, a conspiracy theory. More than 1/3 of European Jews were burnt alive, even though Jews themselves obviously die from the Bubonic Plague. So I think it's hard to come up with any one reason or theory. And I say reason or theory doesn't mean to justify it. But there are certain factors that play into it. And some of the debate over Israel unequivocally plays into it. But again, antisemitism was alive and well long before there was Israel. So I don't think that explains it, although some of the tensions around it may feed into it.
Tony Lee:
All right. So let's pivot a little bit toward, so what do we do? And especially what's HR's role here? Education obviously is a key method of addressing antisemitism. What's your guidance?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, the first thing is the acknowledgement that antisemitism exists and that it is a problem. Many people don't realize that it exists. And some don't see it as a significant problem. There have been some high profile cases, not going to call out companies by name, but where leaders have said, "This really isn't that big a deal." Zoom bombing with swastikas because Jews have so much power. The failure to address it's a problem. The trope about Jewish powers a problem.
So I think number one, we got to acknowledge it exists and that includes education. And then acknowledge that we don't need to engage in, which is most serious in order to us address it, in terms of societal woes. I do a lot of ecumenical work and I went to an interfaith service and I heard a Luther minister say, "When there's an attack on any of us, there's an attack of all of us." That all of us, that inclusion needs to include Jewish individuals as well. In some places it doesn't. So I think acknowledgement and education is a start, but it's not a stop.
Another critical component is when you see it or you hear it, you need to react to it. SHRM has been a leader in terms of focusing on preventing and remedying harassment. That will apply in a workplace, stereotypical comments about Jews in power. Jokes about the Holocaust, hard to believe they exist, but they do. Misogynistic and antisemitic comments that kind of merge together about Jewish women. Hear them, see them, become aware of them, the need to make clear and not okay. And that's not only tone at the top, but also making sure that those who are the frontline managers know this needs to be taken as seriously as any other form of bias. Needs to be included in training. And again, the training is only as effective as the follow up following it.
Tony Lee:
Yeah. So DE&I programs have been on overdrive since George Floyd's murder. But I have to say, I have not heard much about antisemitic training as part of DE&I. On the other hand, just adding antisemitism training to an existing DE&I program, is that a solution? Or is there something more that needs to be done?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, inclusion means everyone. And I don't think there's an exclusion for any group, at least no, in my view, ethical responsible organization should have any exclusion. And DEI organizations should focus in part where there's fire, and there is fire with the increasing amount of antisemitism. I think a lot of the DEI programs and diversity, equity, and inclusion are not new concepts, but thankfully greater attention being given to them in corporate America is new and is positive.
And I can understand why the initial focus has been on race, ethnicity, and gender terms broadly defined. There're starting points. There're critical points. But they're not stopping points. We need to look at religion, not only antisemitism. We need to look at disability. We need to look at age. And it needs to be integrated as part of the framework. Education is one thing, but it goes beyond that, acknowledging certain important days, such as Holocaust Remembrance Day, acknowledging Jewish holidays. There are lots of ways.
As a lawyer, there was one day of ethics and the rest of the year a lawyer was unethical. We wouldn't say it's very successful ethics program. Well, to me, inclusion is making sure that part of the fabric of efforts to make employees have a sense of belonging, among other groups, Jewish employees need to be considered, where are the touches that are relevant? And some of them would be speaking up against things that are negative. Some of who would be remembering things that are painful, such as the Holocaust.
And by the way, a study shows up to 10% of employees don't know, mostly younger individuals, of the Holocaust. Doubt the extent of it. Frightening percentage of individuals actually blame Jews for it. Focusing on those issues are really important. And in the sense of Jewish pride, as we see in other areas, contributions that Jewish individuals have made or delighting in certain customs. Those are things that we see other groups bring to the table and make the workplace richer. I think the same would be true if Jewish employees and allies do the same.
Tony Lee:
So, let's play off that a little bit. We've documented some interesting case studies where, especially smaller companies would say, "Well, here's the way to address it. Let's celebrate Jewish holidays in the workplace." And I'll ask our Jewish employee or employees to stand up and share with everyone what is this holiday about and how do you celebrate it and maybe make some traditional food and bring it in. Is that the way to go? Or, I mean, I'm sure there's some Jewish employees who say, "I don't want to do that. I don't want to be the person who stands up and explains my religion to everyone." What would you suggest there?
Jonathan Segal:
Well, it's a great question. And I am working with a Jewish organization that said when they go into workplaces, they often have difficulty getting Jewish employees to share their stories. And there is sometimes, it's a bit baffling as to why. I need to acknowledge, Tony, as you know, I've been doing work with SHRM for many years, and I had not focused on antisemitism or Jewish sense of belonging as much as I do now. The events of the last five years, starting with the white supremacist marching with tiki torches in Charlottesville, screaming, "Jews will not replace us." And by the way, they didn't mean replace them as marchers. They meant the Jews that were controlling the world, or so they said, would not replace the marchers with others. They were white supremacists. So they were talking about replacing white people with black and brown people.
But again, it's this Jewish conspiracy. I think there is a hesitancy sometimes, by some Jews, to speak up, because our collective situation is not as bad as other groups. But it wasn't as bad in 1932 as it was in 1939. So I'm not sure we need to wait for the fire to get hotter before we stand up. I note that at the EOC, Commissioner Andrea Lucas, who is not Jewish, spearheaded the drive for the unanimous resolution by the EOC condemning antisemitism. When I went to the Holocaust Museum recently to read the names of people who were murdered in the Holocaust, always hard to do, particularly when they're children, but harder not to do, to forget them to borrow from the sale is to kill again.
It's although a painful day, heartwarming to see the buses full of Christian and other faiths, acknowledging what happened. And to some degree, as Jewish employees, the door's been opened for us. And we really need to walk in the door and raise the issue. And Cheryl Sandberg said in the concept of gender bias about leaning in with a DI initiative, if one believes there's not adequate attention to, and there's not in some workplaces, concerns that affect Jewish employees, to lean in and raise the issue. Don't assume antisemitism. I don't assume bad faith unless someone establishes it for me.
Now, if you say, I think we should raise this, and someone responds in a way, "Well, why would you think here's antisemitism? You run the workplace." Well, now I think you have some evidence of bad faith. And even then, well, let's talk about that because that's exactly why I think we need to have some education and to have some discussion. I also want to call out Commissioner Keith Sanderling, who has been speaking on the issue.
We both share Holocaust roots. And for people like us, well, I don't want to speak for the commissioner, but we've spoken about it. Days like Holocaust Remembrance Day hit hard. And when an organization acknowledges it, it goes a long way. One of my clients, which is a church, made sure that they acknowledge the day, focusing on the particularly insidious impact on Jews in terms of percentage, 2/3 of a community wiped out. But at the same time, recognizing each life is of equal value and the universal application, but never again means never again to anyone.
Tony Lee:
Yes. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me to discuss antisemitism in the workplace and what we can all do to help address it moving forward. Before we get out of here, I want to encourage everyone to follow All Things Work wherever you listen to your podcast. And also, listener reviews have a real impact on a podcast's visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to leave a review and help others find the show. Finally, you can find all of our episodes on our website at SHRM.org/atwpodcast. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you next time on All Things Work.
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