Joining host Anne Sparaco is Jenn Graham, founder and CEO of the workplace culture consulting firm Inclusivv. Jenn shares her insights on fostering a respectful workplace culture by emphasizing the importance of peer-to-peer dialogue and how psychological safety is essential for diverse teams to thrive.
Joining host Anne Sparaco is Jenn Graham, founder and CEO of the workplace culture consulting firm Inclusivv. Jenn shares her insights on fostering a respectful workplace culture by emphasizing the importance of peer-to-peer dialogue and how psychological safety is essential for diverse teams to thrive.
This episode is sponsored by Jobvite.
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Anne Sparaco:
Welcome to All Things Work, a podcast from SHRM. I'm your host, Annne Sparaco. Each week we dive into game-changing trends that are transforming the world of work. And this week we are tackling National Civility Month, and one of the best people to come into this conversation of civility and inclusion in the workplace, joining us today is Jenn Graham, Founder and CEO of Inclusivv, which is a workplace culture consulting firm in Atlanta, Georgia. Jenn, welcome to the podcast.
Jenn Graham:
Thank you so much, Anne. So excited to be here.
Anne Sparaco:
So you founded Inclusivv approximately eight years ago with decades of experience in social innovation. What exactly got you into doing all this work, this social innovation work and workplace culture?
Jenn Graham:
My journey in regards to social innovation really started back in 2010. My passion was always around helping to elevate the consciousness of really important issues. I was the founder, or co-organizer, of TEDx Atlanta. I worked with leaders to help prime them and be able to speak and give the talk of their lives in 18 minutes.
In the process of doing that over five years and dozens of events, I became suddenly frustrated with a lack of progress around these important issues. I started to realize that one-way monologue just wasn't enough to really move people to change behavior. Study after study has shown now that what you need in order to really move people to create change is peer-to-peer dialogue. And so back in, almost a decade ago, in 2014, is when I dove headfirst into small group conversations that really remove the expert from the equation and instead allow the genius of the room to really emerge.
And it's through that, it's like the true inclusive format where everybody has a voice, everybody has a microphone, and they get to share their own lived experiences and learn and listen from others. That is the magic and power of the Inclusivv model. And so why it's so important and relevant today is that the scientists also have proven that it's 10 times more effective at converting people into behavior change when you absorb this model paired with training. It's transformative. And I think that's what we need more than ever when it comes to mobilizing around the issues that matter.
Anne Sparaco:
You talked about the TED Talk work you've done, I understand you did a TED Talk in 2018 about finding common ground, and you talked about the lack of civility among people in the nation during that time reaching a critical point. And here we are, 2024, approaching another presidential election, and you talked about how we lack the tools and the guidance to essentially navigate difficult conversations. I really loved what you had to say during your TED Talk just a few years ago, but here we are having the similar conversation because it's important now more than ever, especially as we are in National Civility Month, creating that awareness.
SHRM conducted studies to create what we now call the Civility Index, which measures how civil society and workplaces are in the United States. And at this point, we are measured to at the point of taking action. We need to take action because we are seeing millions and millions of uncivil acts per day. That's what people are experiencing or witnessing. And so you've talked about civility, you've talked about inclusiveness in the workplace, can you talk about how those come together and benefit each other to create a similar goal?
Jenn Graham:
Absolutely. Wow. Well, inclusivity and civility I think go hand in hand, and I almost feel like you cannot have inclusion without having just decency and respect of one another. When we look into creating an inclusive environment, it's essentially talking about a place where everybody feels like they belong, where they feel welcome, where they can feel respected and valued for their unique voice. And so civility plays a critical role in that and that making sure that people are treated and their ideas or treated with respect. And so an example of this is in the workplace, psychological safety is one of the most important factors when it comes to successful teams as a whole, but it's also absolutely critical for diverse teams. And so you really cannot have successful teams that are diverse without psychological safety, and that is at the core of civility.
And so psychological safety is a core part of our civility trainings, and we talk about it as the difference between having a team that actually invites new perspectives, where they don't feel threatened by a new idea, or they allow people to riff. And it's not just the leader's perspective really guiding the whole discussion, but it's about creating that whole container of newness and ideas. And also a willingness to talk about fears, concerns, and even mistakes is what separates a successful team apart from those isn't the fact that they make fewer mistakes, it's the fact that they're willing to talk about those mistakes in a way that feels safe and inviting and encouraging so that everybody has a chance to learn. Not just the one who committed the mistake, everybody. And everybody gets to learn from those micro experiences.
And so where that shows up, especially in the inclusivity space, is that sometimes if somebody says something either intentionally or mistakenly, accidentally, that can almost be that tension that could be the root of a workplace conflict. And instead of approaching it with direct accusation and confronting with the intent to be in conflict, if we just instead to seek to learn and address calmly and respectfully and with dignity, we can bring down the emotional tension and actually learn from them, learn from it. And in real time, allow people to become aware of their actions, whether it was unconscious or intentional, and let people know what is tolerated and what is accepted and what is not. It's almost like going back to those parenting toolkits that we have is like you get what you tolerate, and you really have to teach people how to respond in a way and model that. And so it's especially important for leaders to understand the intersectionality between acting civil and calmly, especially in high tense situations, and the power that brings to creating a more inclusive workplace.
Anne Sparaco:
And I love how you tied psychological safety in with your earlier point of how everybody needs to be at the table. But like you said, if they don't feel safe to be at that table, they're not going to want to be at the table, so I think you can open the door, but if they don't feel safe, they're not going to walk through it.
Jenn Graham:
Totally. And one more point on that is that remember that most people are definitely afraid of speaking up, that public speaking even is still up there with the fear of death. And so some of us take for granted, especially the extroverts such as myself, but I'm assuming you, we are comfortable voicing our opinions, but others are not. And it takes a lot of courage just for them to express a point of view nonetheless, one that conflicts with somebody else's. So we just have to honor that and appreciate that and make sure that everybody, we can create the container for the environment and build the environment for psychological safety.
Anne Sparaco:
Exactly. And I do consider myself a little bit of an extrovert, more like an extroverted introvert, so people who may even come off extroverted may be more introverted naturally just when it comes to speaking up, so I agree with you in the sense that it is hard, even if it seems like someone would be confident to do so. At the end of the day, it is a challenge for someone to overcome that fear, but that psychological safety, that civility, that part really plays a huge role in inclusivity. I absolutely love that point you made, and you've been involved with SHRM a lot, especially with our annual conference in Chicago back in June. You ran the Cafe Civility Booth, and there you conducted trainings on fostering civil conversations. We love to see the SHRM 1 Million Civil Conversations Initiative. We love to see that. And you talked to us about managing emotions with empathy, creating that psychological safety as well. What were some of the biggest takeaways that you got from these sessions and how did these insights actually come into play with Inclusivv?
Jenn Graham:
Yes. Wow. Well, first of all, we were completely blown away by how well received these trainings were at SHRM '24. I mean, the setup and the booth was fantastic, and the response that we were received and the attendance was just shocking, and so it was an eyeopener for us, and it showed how much that leaders, especially HR leaders, and not just in the ENI space or people and culture, but even across from compliance and to benefits, and everybody is craving these kinds of tools for civility, and it's almost the basic fundamentals have been overlooked or lacking in workplaces, and they're starting to see the cracks form.
And often HR leaders are the first ones to carry the burden of these kinds of uncivil and these instances of incivility at work. And often they're the ones that people turn to for how to resolve conflict, and they're even lacking the tools and understandings and mindsets for how to do this. So I think they're the first ones on the front lines that are meeting these. So that was our first big a-ha moment that they are under-supported in this realm, and that's where we can step in. I think Inclusivv can play a huge role in that.
And I give my hat tip to SHRM for really leaning into civility and owning this as a core message for all of 2024 and beyond because I do think HR leaders, particularly, are looking for the trainings and the tools, and SHRM provides the brilliant research, the Civility Index, but I think we can help bring it to the next step, like giving the tools for how, actually the words, the framing, and the toolkits. And so during National Civility Month, we are absolutely beside ourself and excited to partner with SHRM and offering not only a 25-minute video tutorial for HR leaders and to work to learn the essential skills for fostering civil conversations at work. They can log on to the shrm.org/civility, and for SHRM members, they'll be able to watch a video and be able to download our little host guide for how to host these conversations internally and practice these essential skills.
So we really, we've partnered with SHRM all in to help make sure that leaders have the tools within the workplace. And of course, we are here to offer civility trainings live and in person, online or in person. And we've already done so many since SHRM, I think half a dozen already, including Kohls, one in DC, but the SHRM membership team, and even advocacy organizations.
And the most shocking thing I think from those is that we've had people come up to me afterwards asking, "Hey, we host these conversations, this training, in our schools. Can we host this for our school board? Can we host this for our sorority club, our youth?" This is almost so fundamental that any size organization, any industry, any even title is craving this kind of foundational training. So that was the biggest a-ha moment for me coming from the work. And this is why we are trying to elevate the messaging and get the word out around the fact that there are tools that exist. There are essential mindsets that you can have to help break the cycle of incivility in the workplace, and we just want to help get the word out.
Anne Sparaco:
Busy people in the workplace, they get lost, and it's easy to get lost in the everyday conversation, especially with all the social media and technology we have. It's constantly in front of our faces. And so I think that's really great that you brought that up, that even at a younger level, this conversation's being started, and I think it seems so simple, yet so inspiring and innovative that there's a lot of opportunity there when it comes to civility and realizing how much it actually impacts, right?
Jenn Graham:
Yes. And especially those, I feel for the youth of today. I could not imagine growing up with a digital device that could access the world's news at any moment in time and also impact the bullying, all the things that can happen and the mental overload. And that is why, I mean, Gen Z, especially, is the most diverse generation of our time, but they are also the most anxious and most depressed. And so we have got to give these tools to them directly, and I feel like whether it's from learning it first in the workplace and then allowing the parents to be able to teach those skills directly and at the family dinner table would be such a powerful way of disseminating information or however we want to scale it, but I do feel like these messages are fundamental and are not being taught in our school, and unless it was in pre-K, in kindergarten, and so we just need a refresher, that's all.
Anne Sparaco:
We've talked about the Civility Index, and what we've noticed was we've seen from the quarter one to quarter two research results was an actually increase by millions of uncivil acts per day, over 200 million uncivil acts per day, just witnessed in society in general and or experienced. And a lot of a great portion of that is actually in the workplace, a setting where you usually expect to withhold such type of behavior or conversations. What are some factors that might actually explain this increase in uncivil acts? We have a lot of research backing this up. We have a lot of research digging into this, but from your company's perspective.
Jenn Graham:
There is just a lot of uncertainty in our world right now that just the mounting tension from existential crises like climate change and other things, and then also add on top of that just the day-to-day stresses of making it financially. And so if people are in a state of self-preservation, they lack the capacity to mount conversations that require a bit of an emotional understanding and self-love even. And so I think the amount of stress and uncertainty and what does, what's that term, VUCA, right? It's like volatile, uncertain, complex. I forget what it means, but that is the world that we're in. So we just have to honor that, right? We are in a social experiment that nobody has outlived yet and understanding that, so we're all in the same boat together. And that is I think a key plot twist to that saying like, "Hey, we are all in this together."
The second thing is that the workplace is the most diverse that it has ever been before, and it's only going to become more and more diverse because Gen Z is the most diverse generation of our time, with 47% of them identifying as racially or ethnically diverse. What that means is, and also the workplace is also the only place left remaining that you don't get to choose who you work with, so you're suddenly ripped out of your bubble of your friends or your social circle or who you go to church with or what play games with. And suddenly you're mixed in with people who have different face, different religion, different backgrounds, and you're asked to work collaboratively together for eight hours a day if not longer. And so without any training on how to handle diverse perspectives different from your own.
So I think in that instance, that's probably why we're seeing the growth in that, but especially over the last couple of months, which is startling statistics, add on top of that a political election campaign where you have political advertisements that are historically negative and not modeling very civil language to one another. And so when you're inundated with tech messages and emails and videos, we are impacted. Our psyche is impacted by those messages, and suddenly we start to believe that that way of talking to another is okay, and that is the norm, but it is not.
And so I think we have to remember that we are in a state that, hopefully, is temporary, but we have to protect ourselves, we have to arm ourselves and equip ourselves with the skills to know, when is fear being used as a tool to manipulate us? When are we being inundated with messages that are unhealthy for our own psyche? How can we intentionally recognize that, set it aside, and then act differently? So it requires a level of self-awareness to know the difference between somebody else's feelings and my own feelings and not all of that. So I think that just the polarization that is just, I feel, being ramped up by also the way our social media and media is designed to just pull us even further apart.
We have to intentionally mobilize around what brings us together, and we have to remember that at the end of the day, we are human beings, and we all are struggling in our own ways. So if we can remember that, that we're in this together, we're all under unique stresses, whether it's thinking about climate change or thinking about my children or their children and dealing with 115 degree heat in 20 years, who knows? But that is something that affects me and my mental state and my decision making and my passion, and it shows up. And so I think also we have to honor the passion that people are feeling because they feel like their core values and what they care about is under threat at the moment. And so we just have to honor that, honor the passion, and also care enough to confront and give each other some hugs if it's appropriate. Ask for permission. But I think lean in and lean in into our shared humanity. I feel like that is what we need most now. It's not modeled for us in our leadership or in these political campaigns.
Anne Sparaco:
When we are seeing a very tense political election year, and the Civility Index is expecting it to only get a little worse, if not way more worse as we approach election day. Looking inward, what should people do when it comes to looking at those values and looking within themselves when approaching those difficult, tense conversations, especially in the workplace around politics?
Jenn Graham:
The forces at be will try to pull us apart. So we have to take intention. We have to be intentional about finding where our common ground is and being willing to step aside from our own ideas of what we think is right and lean in to saying, "Okay, how do we get it right?" So we have this saying in order to shift from incivility to civility, it's a choice. And we can say, if we are willing to have a mindset of, "Hey, I'm not here to be right, I'm here to get it right," then we will be able to move mountains. Because I think it's a lot of times we tend to just hold our ground and dig in and double down and defend and deflect and distance ourself from a different perspective, but instead, we need to just get curious. We need to lean in and find that kernel of truth that is within the other person's perspective that we can learn from and then build on together to find a real solution that works for everyone.
I do believe that there is common ground among every issue, especially the polarizing ones, that if we can really take the time and be courageous enough to lean in and be curious, then we can really find something magical there, so I think we talk about three essential mindsets in our civility training, and they're all required in order to shift and break the cycle of incivility. And the first I mentioned already is curiosity. When we lean in with curiosity and actually seek to learn something from the other and not try to convince them as our point of view or why they're right or why they should change their mind. Instead, if we just seek to be curious and ask them, "Tell me more. Why do you care about this so much?" And then let them unpack it for you. And somewhere in that, when you're listening actively and with empathy and trying to find their passion and what they care about, that's where you can start to find common ground.
And so understanding their perspective. And one of the biggest a-ha moments for me is that curiosity doesn't mean you agree with someone. And also deeper understanding is not agreement. And I feel like we've conflated the two of these. It's almost like compromise has turned into a bad word these days. And I'm like, "What?" Okay. But if we focus on our shared values through curiosity, then we can start to find, celebrate what we have in common rather than what is different from us.
And then lastly, I think without judgment. We tend to just jump, sometimes some of us are more judgment on others than others, but I think we have to just set that aside and lean in with pure curiosity in order to really find, and that means asking good questions and being genuinely interested in learning about another person. And once we do that, then we break through some of those invisible barriers that are causing us to be so standing our ground or defending our way, because at the core of it, we are all suffering, and hurt people, hurt people.
Anne Sparaco:
I agree.
Jenn Graham:
I fully believe that if we can start to get to know people in a way where we can see their pain in their own ways, then they will feel seen, and they won't lash out as far as their self-preservation because I believe those that are defending or protecting themselves from something.
Anne Sparaco:
Right. And if you keep that perspective, it's easier to understand and easier to set yourself back a little bit in those moments. And speaking of those moments, when you do witness those uncivil acts or types of behavior, even if it was towards you or you're witnessing it to a coworker happening to that person, what are some things people should or could do in those moments? Respectfully and civilly, obviously.
Jenn Graham:
Honestly, I mean, it goes back to all the great parenting books, right? Model the behavior that you want to see, and I think another thing is you get what you tolerate. If you don't have clear boundaries around what is acceptable and what is not, people will push that boundary as far as it'll go until they get told that that's not okay. And so you have to, whether it's gossiping or being rude or somebody saying something insensitive, you have to care enough to confront them and be bold enough to do so, but in a way that preserves the dignity and respect of them, assuming good intention and in a way that allows them. And so the worst thing you can do is call them out in front of their peers, and then you're just repeating the cycle of incivility, which is our natural state, the back and forth and wanting to, unfortunately, that is what is perpetuating our incivility.
So if we instead take a calm and respectful approach, even take a breath ourselves if we have to, and then lean in, then we can explain why something may have been harmful. We can pull them aside or ask for a quick one-on-one check-in, and in that moment, also make sure that they feel cared for, that you know that you care about them so they don't feel threatened, they don't feel like their job is under threat. Because when people feel threatened, that's when they will hold their ground, and they won't really be listening at all. So make sure that first, the relationship is safe and that you are there to just share something about what you witnessed. We love the nonviolent communication method from Marshall Rosenberg and all the NVC trainings. That is deep into our training as well.
So we teach, just share the observation, what you observed. It's from your point of view, what you observed, how it made you feel, or not made you feel, but how you felt about it, and then the need that is not being met in that moment and that underlying need is an opportunity to share vulnerability in that moment, and then the request. Request in the future, I would appreciate you doing this. And so when I see my child demanding food now, it is like, "Wait a second. Is that how we ask for things here in this house?" Oh, and if they don't get it right, I repeat back to them. "Here's what I would say." And so just coaching them along so that they learn what is acceptable and what is not.
Anne Sparaco:
Right. I love that. I love that Parenting 101 episode in addition to the All Things Work. Just in case anybody's out there, and they're curious about how to handle things at the dinner table in addition to the conference room table, so I love that. Thank you so much, Jen, for joining this conversation, giving those little parenting tips as well, and talking about civility and the importance of inclusion the workplace. Thank you so much for developing this conversation with us.
Jenn Graham:
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be in partnership with SHRM and so excited to see what happens next.
Anne Sparaco:
Wonderful. And of course, we talked about that, how to guide video for SHRM members. You can find that on SHRM's website shrm.org/civility. And before we say goodbye, I want to encourage everyone listening, no matter what platform you listen on, All Things Work on, to follow us and to also leave a review or comment. You can find more about All Things Work on our social media channels for SHRM, as well as our All Things Work newsletter, and you can find all of the information about the podcast on shrm.org/allthingswork. Thank you for tuning in for this week's episode. We'll catch you next week.
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This episode is sponsored by Jobvite. The enterprise guide to talent acquisition from Jobvite offers insights and recruiting strategies to help your organization navigate modern hiring challenges, get new thinking on how your company can improve candidate quality, and drive hiring efficiencies. Learn how to leverage scalability as a strategic advantage and consistently improve recruiting outcomes. Download your free guide today at jobvite.com/resources.