Performance reviews are often met with groans and anxiety, but they don’t have to be a dreaded part of organizational life. Jay Jones and Payten Kirby, leads of talent and employee experience at SHRM, share how employers, managers, and employees can all improve the performance review process together. Learn the importance of building on existing strengths and making thoughtful adjustments to areas that cause frustration or disengagement. Plus, explore practical ways to ease tension around performance reviews, and how they can drive ongoing success and strengthen workplace culture.
Performance reviews are often met with groans and anxiety, but they don’t have to be a dreaded part of organizational life. Jay Jones and Payten Kirby, leads of talent and employee experience at SHRM, share how employers, managers, and employees can all improve the performance review process together. Learn the importance of building on existing strengths and making thoughtful adjustments to areas that cause frustration or disengagement. Plus, explore practical ways to ease tension around performance reviews, and how they can drive ongoing success and strengthen workplace culture.
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Anne: Welcome to All Things Work. I'm your host Ann Sparaco. It's that time of year again, employee performance review time. I can already hear the groan. So let's face it. These reviews have a res reputation for being a bit stressful, time consuming, and honestly, sometimes not that useful, but it doesn't have to be that way.
So joining us today to discuss this and help your organization move from paperwork and pressure to clarity, coaching and real development. Our two HR leads at SHRM [00:01:00] focused on talent and employee experience. Welcome to all things work, Peyton Kirby and Jay Jones.
Payten: Thank you.
Jay: Thank you. Thanks for having.
Anne: Great to have you. So for so many employees and managers out there, let's just jump right into it. Why do performance reviews feel like going to the dentist in the corporate life?
Jay: Well, you know, um, too, too often performance reviews feel like a once a year event and it can be really, you know, disconnected from real work. Um, they're treated as more of a compliance checkoff than a conversation, and that causes, you know, a natural issue. You know, there's a lack of clarity, there's a lack of consistency, um, relevance to what we're doing in our day-to-day work.
Um, and there can be fatigue from, you know, vague back looking conversations. So it, it's really about making sure that it's a, and you probably talk about this quite a bit, but making sure it's a continuous conversation that's more of a, a, a moment in time where we can have a. A specific moment to talk about this rather than the once a year that we discuss it.
And that way we can, [00:02:00] we can make sure that there is no dread or heading to the dentist. Um, we just wanna make sure that there's the right mindset, tools and, and putting those in place really allows us to make sure that the conversation's really powerful. One that gives us opportunities to build trust, foster growth, and really recognize the impact of the work that everybody's doing all year long.
Payten: Yeah. Building off of that, when you've got a culture of continuous feedback. One-on-ones postmortems on events or projects, what went well, what didn't. That is then a performance conversation and that feedback is being received and implemented throughout the year. So then there are no surprises. Um, kind of takes the pressure off of the feedback deliverer of having to write a whole year's worth of performance and reduces that anxiety of the feedback receiver when they can trust that their manager is not going to throw any surprises in there because they have been receiving this real-time feedback all year.
Anne: Trust is so big. And so we know that the workplace evolves every single day, if not every minute. It feels that way. Um, so going back to that [00:03:00] traditional approach, what exactly is really broken about that? Um, you know, maybe that has not evolved with the workplace and what's surrounding the workplace.
Jay: broken so strong. It, it's just about making sure you have this honest developmental conversation. You know, people need to be able to feel like they have. A standing in where their career is going and opportunity to grow within. And that can't be something that feels rehearsed or compliant.
Um, that's just not a way to really build confidence and connection with, with your team. So it's really about making sure that it's not a, a one size fits all check box and more of a conversation around how you can really impact your team, your organization, how you can build the right skills that are gonna make you successful in the future.
And that has to be a, a candid. A conversation that every, every manager has the tools to have, tools to feel they're comfortable having that with their, with their team. Um, so broken. Um, it's, it's really more of we have to put, uh, more of a focus [00:04:00] on it before that conversation happens. And that's a continuous conversation that we're having all year long rather than this one moment that can cause a lot of anxiety and disruption.
Um, if it's not something that we're focused on as a. The unit and the organization.
Payten: Going back to what Jay mentioned previously about consistency. When you have consistent expectations in your job descriptions, you're able to measure performance against that, provide feedback based on that. Um, and I don't know that performance is necessarily broken or that performance reviews are broken, especially with how many, um, different avenues people are taking with performance evaluation and performance management these days.
Um, but it really is about being able to set those clear expectations pursuant to organizational objectives rather than, um, this very. Potentially bias, uh, evaluating an individual in a vacuum based on their individual performance and individual strengths and weaknesses, uh, compared to modeling performance management after organizational objectives.
Anne: I would love to put a [00:05:00] little magic in here. If you had a magic wand, sprinkle it over and you could redesign performance reviews from scratch. Knowing what you guys know in your experience, what would you keep? Toss or let's say maybe set fire and really set to the side so they can meet the needs of today's modern workplace.
Payten: Jay's point, I would certainly keep the synchronous review of performance. Let's, talk about skills gaps. Let's talk about gaps in your performance and design solutions together. That's where the real ROI happens on performance reviews is being able to build that relationship and also build out a plan for execution. what I would probably like to set fire to, if I can use, one of my favorite phrases. it's probably any performance review that is, um, overly tedious or is trying to control for too many factors. if your end user is not taking this seriously [00:06:00] or is, treating this as a check in the box compliance, measure. Or is, otherwise not going to take their data input seriously. The data that you get out of that, process as an organization, whether that's for talent mobility purposes, or identifying organizational skills, gaps to close is just not going to be reliable. so I would probably set fire to, any, performance reviews that are not user-friendly.
Jay: I toss anything that is generic in the process. Um, it's perfectly fine to have a rating scale very, if that's something that makes things clear and and concise for, for the team.
Uh, but you also wanna make sure that you're having a tailored conversation with this person. Um, it's already something that can feel anxious, especially if you don't have that built into your culture to have that continuous developmental mindset, those continuous conversations throughout the year.
Everyone's working towards that for sure. But you wanna make sure you have a spot where your, your management team can really reflect on the qualitative thing. Things that this person has really done [00:07:00] at a high level throughout the year, and also where they can express specific examples of how they've really excelled or maybe had an opportunity and whatever it is their focuses were for their goals or how they were trying to implement other team's culture into what they're trying to accomplish throughout the year.
So I'd really scratch anything that takes the, the, I guess, the genuineness outta the conversation and make it personal, purposeful, and really future.
Anne: Peyton and Jay getting the matches out. Okay. Just kidding folks. Uh, so when it comes to really the HR side to make these performance reviews, you know, feel more useful and perhaps even enjoyable, rather than just kind of this. Bureaucratic maze for employees. You know, what are some real practical steps HR professionals can take today, uh, to take into consideration to make this more useful and enjoyable?
Payten: Well, everybody loves development. So, um, hanging on to that developmental piece of, you know, you're not doing fantastic in [00:08:00] this area, or, you know, we're not seeing, uh, effective dedication in these tasks. Let's talk about this plan to get from A to B, or conversely, you're doing fantastic in your role. Let's talk about your long-term career objectives.
Um, keeping that developmental piece is really important. Um, I think also making it, um, less of a, a bureaucratic maze. I have already given you my, my soapbox on, uh, o overly tedious, um, end user experiences. But generally, um, if you are an HR professional and you are managing the performance management process, being able to tie that back again to some sort of, um.
Objective benchmark, whether that's a job description, maybe of a, a competency framework. Um, taking away that subjectivity and taking the onus off of the individual manager and their individual judgment and placing it on, uh, a standard benchmark will, you know, not only increase fairness, but reduce anxiety, uh, for everyone involved when everyone's got the same [00:09:00] definition of expectations.
Jay: Yeah, you know, I'll double down on what Peyton started off there in terms of just really simplifying the tools and the language. Um, you know, everyone. Hates it when their technology doesn't work. If you've ever had your wifi go down. So you just wanna make sure that it's, it's as simplified as possible.
So if you're, you know, if the process takes 5 million clicks to get into, or making it a little bit too complex. So make sure you have the right tools in place to make the process as smooth one for both the manager and employee. Um, and then you also would just wanna make sure that you're focused on the impact overall and not necessarily the process.
Um, you wanna build around how people are contributing to, you know, their mission culture. You don't wanna focus on. Really the tasks that they have to complete throughout the year. And then also it feeling prepared. You know, if you've done anything that's brand new to you, um, everyone feels uncomfortable.
Some people feel like they can jump right into it, and some people feel like there's absolutely no way I can make this happen. So, you know, you wanna make sure that your team is prepared on both ends in terms of how the, your [00:10:00] staff can write a really effective review that their manager can use to really evaluate their process, maybe even bring up some things that they forgot about.
'cause guess what? They're human too. Um, and making sure they're, that the managers and team and the staff are prepared to do that, um, is really important and that will help reduce, you know, friction. It'll elevate the, the process overall and really make something that people are looking forward to rather than have to endure when they get that email from, from HR.
Anne: And I think that transitions well into our conversation about managers. Uh, they, they feel this, uh, particular type of pressure and responsibility. We understand that especially, um, as a lot of companies, you know, tend to be laying off employees. They wanna make sure what they're saying and what they're, you know, writing in these performance reviews.
You know, are accurate and, and, and not risking anything, I guess in particular. I think that would be my concern if I were a people manager. Uh, so what advice for these types of managers who may be sweating bullets when it comes to these performance reviews, um, would you [00:11:00] provide them to feel less stress and maybe even more prepared?
You talked about just kind of that, that personal connection, that trust with the individual employee, but I'd love to hear more.
Jay: Well, uh, first I'd I'd say just to do everything you can to take the pressure off yourself with your answers. You know, it's, it's not about delivering this perfect one way conversation. It really should be. A two-way dialogue between yourself and, and, and, uh, the, the people on your team. So start by taking a look, a hard look at their self-reflections.
That will give you a hard, you know, a frame for your conversation. Um, and probably give yourself some insight to things that you may have forgotten about throughout the year. Um, and that that will really build trust. 'cause you'll be able to lay out specific examples of how well they did or specific areas where they need to improve instead of just a generic, you did a great job, you'll be able to really wind up.
You know, this is the project that you had a real impact on, and here's the area where you really had a great impact on the team or the organization overall. And, and doing that really displays how [00:12:00] prepared you are for the conversation. You know, people, we, we have smart and curious people on the team, right?
And, and they're gonna be able to, to see through how prepared you are for the conversation. And just like anything else that you know, someone is doing for the first time, whether it's the first time you're delivering this conversation, or you are a pro and vet, you've done a million times. Um. They'll, they'll be able to hear the, the time and investment that you've put into being prepared for this conversation and being able to, and really interlock with them as, as far as how we're gonna build from here.
Whether that's building on things that they've done really well, they're a rockstar, or if there, there's, there's specific areas that you're laying out for them that you need to see from them for the upcoming.
Payten: Yeah. Um, one roadblock that I've seen a lot in preparation or have heard from a lot of managers in every industry is that they just manage too many people to write and deliver effective performance reviews. So as your team is growing, really think about, okay, come performance review season. When I've also got.
The budget process going on, and I have my own [00:13:00] deliverables, can I effectively manage and write reviews for, you know, 10, 12, 15 people? Maybe not. And so if you, not every manager has complete agency over how many people they manage, but if you are, uh, fortunate enough to be in that seat, it might be time to rethink your team structure.
Anne: That's a really good point to make that I didn't even think of until now. Uh, you know, the number of, uh, people, managers, uh, oversee it. It can be very overwhelming for them and trying to keep up with what they're doing to ensure that their performance review is accurate is also
Payten: Quality of your quality is, is a tough balance.
Anne: It really is managers.
Kudos to you guys. Wow.
Okay, so I would love to jump into the technology side. As we know there's just so many advancements coming out in the workplace.
So how exactly can HR professionals really utilize technology to the best of its ability to make the performance review process smoother and even more engaging for both the manager and the [00:14:00] employees?
Payten: That's a, a great question. There's so much technology out there now, um, but as. Hrs role is evolving to be more of a strategic partner to the business. You do have budget considerations, and so you have to think about what is. A priority for your organization? How can you pitch the ROI of performance reviews, especially if they have not previously been seen as something that's useful and effective?
Um, so you may need to think critically, especially at smaller companies about more of a maturity model for building that business case. So if you today have really tedious, lengthy performance reviews that are seen as sort of a check in the box because HR makes you versus something that is. Useful and informative and really drives your business forward, then you might wanna start with the process itself.
Um, even if that means more manual work for you because it'll, it'll help you sort of pitch the case for that budgetary, uh, opportunity leader to maybe acquire a, um, performance review system that can help you manage [00:15:00] performance. Um, some of them have AI implemented now, but, um, really making sure that your performance review process is user-friendly and actually impactful.
Will really help you drive the business case for adopting performance management technology.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And piggybacking on what Peyton said there, as far as as, uh, far as, um, impact, um, you, you, you wanna make sure that something that's seamlessly works for you and your organization. Because again, there's, there's no one size fits all for everyone. Um, it's great if it can be something that's real time or where you can catch real time feedback and that's something that's built into your culture as something that you use day to day.
Again, really moving your culture towards something that makes this a continuous conversation, not just the one, one time of year or when we're sitting down to talk about performance reviews. So if it can nudge the team to have those conversations and even provide prompts to the manager to, to help out with.
Being able to start those, especially if they're a newer people manager. And that can be something that can [00:16:00] really amplify the conversation, amplify the experience, and not necessarily make this, this, you know, a, b, c conversation that everyone needs to have, um, so that the box is checked at the end of the year.
Um, and that really helped make sure that we're growing the dialogue around continuous improvement. Um, rather than having this anxious conversation about, you know, whether or not I met the goals I didn't know about for the entirety.
Anne: Exactly, and we, and like you said, you don't wanna just make it so you just check off a box and you don't wanna make it so that you're just looking backwards to see what happened, about what went right or
wrong. But instead, you really wanna utilize this to really. Create more of a crystal ball effect where you're looking for continuous growth and development that will lead to that success.
So what are some other ways organizations can move away from that looking. Behind you and more looking forward. I just, I'm sorry. I got Timone and PBA in my head. Like, put your pass behind you, you
know, kind of thing. So if anybody
Jay: to have a earworm for the rest of the day.
Anne: uh, you know, [00:17:00] you put your pass behind you. And I guess, yeah, so that's the phrase.
So how can organizations really look ahead, as Timone would say?
Payten: That's a great question, Anne. Um, this is something that I think traditional performance reviews have started to adopt and are aiming toward is to have that, you know, looking forward, what's there to improve on or what goals do you have for yourself next year. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything or, or is not going to be impactful if you don't have a culture of continuous improvement where it is expected that you take feedback, implement it, and are given the opportunity to improve.
If you've got a culture that has low psychological safety, low trust, um, people aren't necessarily given the opportunity before, um, punitive action might be taken. If they aren't meeting expectations, then you're not going to have a lot of follow through on, uh, that future looking. Um, for funds or deal.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, that psychological safety that Peyton talked about is really key. [00:18:00] So when you're trying to make sure you're looking forward, it's, it's best to try to flip that question on its head. You know, it's, it's really important to reflect on how you perform, but really we want to focus forward on, you know, what are you gonna be doing next?
Because that's a journey that hopefully the people manager and the. The, the employer are gonna be taken together. So it's about asking, um, what are your strengths gonna be? That what you can really double down on to show how you can impact the team for the rest of the year. Um, what gaps can we tackle together and how, what resources and tools do you need so that, um, we can make this process for you easier or you can accelerate role at even higher level.
Um, that that's how we can start making sure that you build, do, build that psychological safety that Peyton's talking about. Um, and that we're focused rather than the rear, rear, rear view mirror that you talked about and, and we're on the road forward together.
Anne: Exactly. I mean,
Payten: don't need to be l and D professionals in order to get employees from A to B on skills, gaps, or performance gaps. They just have to be willing to lean into some of that.
Jay: Absolutely.
Anne: Exactly. I, I [00:19:00] love the point of psychological safety. Uh, it's so important. You, you're starting out as a team. You wanna maintain your team. You want your team to be part of it and, and want to be part of it. So I think that's that psychological safety point, you know, doubling down on that is just, is so essential.
So I would love to, uh, dive into a little bit on data. So we know data's everywhere, but not all of it is really that helpful, especially. In the age of AI now and all these advancements, um, what information is actually helpful for managers to include in reviews and one information is really not so helpful.
Payten: Yeah. Um, so there, there is a lot of information out there. We do, again, ask you to go look back at your one-on-one notes, take performance feedback from throughout the year. Some teams, uh, lend themselves more heavily to KPIs than others. For example, sales and customer service have more of a KPI driven performance structure than some other teams.
So making sure that you're bringing in those specific examples. [00:20:00] Um, however, if you are going to use ai, one, data security is really important. So maybe scrub names before you throw anything into chat, GPT. Um, but if you do have this amalgamation of documentation of performance throughout the year, that in a perfect world, we all would, if you're documenting your one-on-ones, which, um, I don't know, is quite standard practice just yet.
Um, but if you have all that information. AI can be a really good tool to summarize, uh, themes and areas that have shown improvement. Areas that have, you know, maybe fallen by the wayside or been inconsistent.
Jay: and just make sure that the, that the data you use is telling more of a story, um, and that we're not just cutting and pasting, you know, the KPI that, that we have in inside of the, um, performance area that, that you're filling out for your team. Um, just make sure that, again, I think Peyton mentioned me earlier about giving yourself the time.
To, to really can sit down, consider your review, especially if you have a larger team. Um, so making sure you're grabbing that data and you're turning that into [00:21:00] qualitative feedback that really ties, you know, what, what the goals are for that role, for that position to the person and the, the goals that they have for themselves, which ultimately should be helping your organization overall.
Um, and that really makes it easier, not just for, for the employee to understand where they fit into accomplishing the goals of your organization and for your team, but it also makes everyone feel really comfortable in terms of. Understanding the direction that we're trying to go in together. Um, so, so data, you're right, super important to have, but we need to use it to make sure that we're using it to interpret how we can build together and not just a, a judgment tool off of um, whether or not you are a five or a one, um, when we're filling out the performance review.
Anne: Exactly, and I think, uh, a lot of people can rely easily on chat GBT to, to make, uh, their review, whether it's self performance or other performance reviews kind of sound more professional. So I think that's another thing people try to use, but it's always important to use your human intelligence.
Don't forget that in wake of ai. So, okay, switching [00:22:00] back to the employee side, I think it's really easy to fall into a mindset that we as employees don't really have much control when it comes to these performance reviews as this can make us feel a lot like we're under a microscope. So what role should employees play in flipping that mindset and shaping their own performance review and growth goals?
Jay: A, a center role, um, that I'm so glad you asked that question because. The, the best performance reviews aren't top down. You know, they're, they're co-authored, authored, excuse me. Um, you know, when you have the opportunity to write your performance view, uh, first of all, hopefully you're keeping track of all of the accomplishments that you've had throughout the year.
So it's not like a harken back to try to remember all that. But, um, you're reflecting on your achievements. Um, hopefully you have an organization where you can speak, um, very candidly about the challenges that you experience. And what growth that you, that matters to you and also ties to your organization, um, when, when you take the time as an employee.
'cause most, most of us [00:23:00] aren't just, even if you are a people manager, you're usually filling out a performance review for yourself that someone else is gonna review. Um, you wanna make sure that you are a real active participant and not just how you perform previously, but how you're going to grow in your role moving forward.
And that just, that helps to make sure that one, you feel empowered in the conversation that you're having. When your goals are being set beyond that conversation, um, but you're also in line, in line with your manager as far as the vision that you have for everything that you. But for the rest of the year, I, looking forward.
Payten: To build on Jay's point, being really honest with your, with yourself, and evaluating your performance from your manager's perspective, you should be the one, the the first one to point out the things that you need to work on. Think really critically about how you could be showing up better. None of us are perfect and the distance between the, you know, mental and emotional turmoil.
Providing somebody difficult feedback becomes way smaller. When you're the first one to raise your hand and say, you know, I feel like I need to work on this. Can you help me get there? Um, so that's one way to sort of drive the conversation for [00:24:00] the more, um. Remedial developmental areas of, of a performance conversation that can give us some of the, the biggest anxiety.
And for those who are, you know, crushing it, they really have, um, uh, a sense of direction for their career and they really wanna capitalize on professional development, uh, opportunities or benefits that their organization is providing. Um. You gotta be thinking like, uh, like an entrepreneur, you have to think about the business and how can you align your professional goals with, um, either operational gaps that you see in the business, or skills or strategies that your leadership has voiced are a priority so that you can make the most, um, uh, uh, you can make the most out of a business case for your developmental plan.
I would love to get my sommelier certification there is. Unfortunately no opportunity for, for my employer to pay for that. Um, because that is not part of my job. It's not gonna be a part of my next job. Um, so keeping your developmental, um, path and, and interest sort of aligned in any way with your organization will [00:25:00] be important.
I.
Anne: Okay, so raises and promotions often hinge on performance reviews. We all know that. We're all feeling it. That's part of the pressure and stress in all of this process. And sometimes the, how do I get there question just feels a little too enigmatic. So how can HR professionals really help make this connection clearer so employees aren't really left guessing at the next level pathways.
Jay: You know, I, I don't know when I was getting ready for today, I, think I was just watching a horror movie at the time, and I've shared this with Payten before most horror movies, I'm set for. But paranormal activity is one that's just like, I can't handle it. And I'm like,
you can't fight what you can't see.
I'm willing to box, Freddy or Jason, but, if someone's gonna yank me, then I, just can't. It makes me anxious. And, that's the same for this. you can't really work towards something that you don't understand. There's not a clear pathway [00:26:00] for, and you definitely don't want to feel like there's an insider's game in terms of how you, can advance in your career.
So clarity is key. Um, you wanna make sure that there's something specific that your staff can look at it at each level. Um, you wanna make sure you have defined skills, behaviors that you're looking for and outcomes, uh, to advance. And you also wanna make sure that you're, you're giving, you're making sure that that's in bright lights.
It should be hard to find that information. Um, it's something that every staff member should know well before they get into the performance review conversation. And doing that really gives. Now someone who might not just have the natural capabilities to think of those things without the, you know, the, the guide or the, the pathway set for them, um, to really excel at high level and be able to climb a ladder they can see and not the invisible one that, um, they're not able to find on their own.
Payten: It does take more effort on the front end to build out those consistent expectations. Again, whether that's competencies by level, or you've got, um, a skills first approach in your [00:27:00] job descriptions. But making sure that everyone knows how they can achieve success, whatever that looks like in their role or throughout your organization, through career mobility or accessing their, um, professional development benefits.
When, uh, none of that information is readily available, people will make up reasons why people were promoted or not promoted in their head. And it will come back to buy HR and management.
Anne: All right. And I can't, I can't really relate to the paranal activity thing, but
Payten: Yeah, that's, that's all. You'd bray, you say? Not for
me.
Anne: haven't, I'm. Not a horror movie person, so, but thank you for the another movie reference. I love it. Okay, so last question, which we like to call One small thing. For HR leaders who want to ditch the dread and make performance reviews less overwhelming and more meaningful, what's the very first step that they can take today that you would recommend?
Payten: Going back to that culture of performance, you as a manager, um, whether or not this is aligned with your organizational culture, have the opportunity to build [00:28:00] a culture of feedback on your team. So the more often you can provide real time feedback and help people grow and build up those opportunities to build trust and see success throughout the year, the less, um, anxiety inducing those performance reviews are going to be for you and your team.
Jay: Absolutely, and you know, this is something where you can flip a switch on it right now. And that's just truly the language that you're using around performance reviews and performance. O overall, you know, when it's, when you're getting to this time of the year, um, what if it is happens to be a one time event for, for you and your organization, or whether it's quarterly or however often you do it.
We wanna make sure we're not focused on the compliance process or the process of completing the review. Instead, we're focused on, Hey, here, we're gonna talk about how you're gonna grow with us and moving forward, and what we're gonna be focusing on next. Um, that really changes the conversation to something about being, you know, supported, being stretched in your role, um, and, and really stopping the dread [00:29:00] from just having to, to have this conversation with your manager and more of a forward focusing, um, forward focusing conversation that you're both gonna be doing together.
And that's really where the transformation can move from. Exactly what Peyton was talking about in terms of it just being this anxious process to we are, we're really doing this together and we're, we're just trying to figure out that. The way to make that happen.
Anne: Awesome. Amazing stuff. All right. That's going to do it for this week's episode of All Things Work. Thank you so much, Peyton and Jay for making this conversation. Just make us feel a little lighter when it comes to entering this performance review phase. We know it's daunting, but really your insights have truly helped a lot of us, you know, feel a little bit better about it, maybe a little less anxious too.
Payten: Thank you for having us Ann.
Jay: Thank you.
Anne: All right. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. I'm gonna go do my performance review.
[00:30:00]
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